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Author Topic:   Continuation of Flood Discussion
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 391 of 1304 (731649)
05-19-2014 12:16 PM


Re: Interesting resource
That diagram of the GS-GC area is everywhere on the web. What are you saying it's supposed to show?
And what is your point about the photo?

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 392 of 1304 (731650)
05-19-2014 12:28 PM


Re: To HBD
I would like your assessment of my answer to this in Message 353
Not working. The contact between the Unkar and the Vishnu is a nonconformity formed by erosion of the pre-Unkar rocks.
Hotauta Conglomerate MemberRed-brown and gray conglomerate of well-rounded to subangular pebbles and boulders of granite, gneiss, and schist derived from underlying Early Proterozoic igneous and metamorphic rocks. Clasts are cemented in red-brown, coarse-grained, gravelly sandstone matrix. Unconformable contact with underlying Early Proterozoic rocks called the Greatest Angular Unconformity (Noble, 1922), a hiatus lasting about 450 million years (Hendricks and Stevenson, 1990). Unit does not include diabase sills. Variable thickness 0—30 ft (0—10 m). (bold added) (USGS URL Resolution Error Page)
Notice that there are rounded pebbles ('river rock') of the intrusive and metamorphic rocks (Vishnu) in the lowermost Unkar. How do you explain that?
Furthermore, if you look at a picture, foliation in the Vishnu is vertical, whereas the bedding in the Unkar is moderately tilted. I'm not sure how you explain that, either.
By the way, the same relationship holds at the base of the Tapeats.
In fact, a lot of this evidence was provided in the video that you reference last week. Are you rejecting your own sources?

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 393 of 1304 (731651)
05-19-2014 12:31 PM


Re: salt basin
You have no idea what a worldwide Flood would do, there's no point in addressing your unwarranted assertions about that.
Well, we keep looking to you to provide evidence for what such a flood would look like.
You either own this, or you don't.
In the meantime, we do know that what we see is nothing out of the mainstream of geological observations.

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 158 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 394 of 1304 (731652)
05-19-2014 12:39 PM


Re: salt basin
Water was water.
Gravity was gravity.
Mass was mass.
Your fludde claims require all that to be false. You're peddling magic.
"Sorting fossils in water' is not something I've ever said.
You can't even remember what you've said, much less what mainstream science has produced.
Message 322:
All the same big event, huh? Would you care to speculate as to why no crab fossil has ever been found in the same rock as a trilobite fossil? No perch in the same rock as a eurypterid? No dimetrodons with dinosaurs? Never, in any of those cases?
Something to do with the principles of hydraulic sorting.
PaulK replies:
And Faith just demonstrates why my advice was good.
No Faith, as others have pointed out, hydraulic sorting is not a viable explanation. Even at the simplest level, the fossils associated with each era have a huge range of shapes and sizes, quite the opposite if what we'd expect if hydraulic sorting were the issue.
And Message 343 you reply:
Hydraulic sortibng plus original location of the original creature, plus level of the currents in the ocean that carried them etc etc etc.
And that's just a small sample.
Or do you not realize the "hydraulic sorting" in a fludde refers to sorting in water?
We see lots of instances of similar sized and similarly shaped organisms, eating similar diets with similar behavior patterns in similar environments (including level in the ocean) but never ever ever ever found anywhere near together in the geological column. Just can't happen with the laws of how mass, water, and gravity work. No matter how much water.
Your claims are disproved by fundamental physical laws. You are preaching magic.

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 395 of 1304 (731653)
05-19-2014 12:40 PM


Re: salt basin
"In the meantime, we do know that what we see is nothing out of the mainstream of geological observations. interpretations."
Edited by Admin, : Use bold quotes instead of [size=4] quotes, sidesteps the bug where the struck-through "observations" is displayed below the rest of the line.

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 396 of 1304 (731654)
05-19-2014 12:44 PM


Re: Interesting resource
And what is your point about the photo?
There are a couple.
First of all, it shows one existing relationship between the Unkar and the Vishnu. The Unkar rocks are preserved with in a graben (a down-dropped body of rocks), without a gradual contact that would be expected if they were the same strata, one derived from the other.
The fault itself is a little hard to follow because it actually runs at an acute angle to the plane of the photo. It looks like the Tapeats is not affected by the fault.
Second, if you look closely, you will see the Tapeats pinching out (not paralllel beds) against a promontory of the Shinumo Quartzite, just as you would want them to in an area where there is relief on an erosional unconformity (following the contours, if you will).

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 397 of 1304 (731655)
05-19-2014 12:47 PM


Re: salt basin
"In the meantime, we do know that what we see is nothing out of the mainstream of geological observations interpretations."
Well, then, you need to provide a better interpretation. One that explains all of the data, not just some of it, on a local basis.
So far, YEC has failed to do so.
Edited by Admin, : Fix quote.

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 398 of 1304 (731656)
05-19-2014 1:02 PM


Re: salt basin
"Sorting fossils in water" is a strange misrepresentation of the idea of water carrying sediments along with dead and dying creatures, in currents and levels of the water and so on, to some point on land where they get deposited just the way water does carry things and deposit them, as that model of Walther's Law suggests. Sorted too, into different sediments. Only in the Flood there would have been a lot more water flowing across a lot more land, a lot more sediments and billions of dead things.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 275 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 399 of 1304 (731657)
05-19-2014 1:08 PM


Re: salt basin
"Sorting fossils in water" is a strange misrepresentation of the idea ...
... that fossils were arranged by "the principles of hydraulic sorting".

  
Capt Stormfield
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 428
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 400 of 1304 (731658)
05-19-2014 1:10 PM


Re: salt basin
"Sorting fossils in water' is not something I've ever said.
...and that, if it were true, would just exacerbate the problem. Issues like the ones JonF raised are observable in the real world. You seem to follow a consistent pattern of segregating factoids from their real world context and then attempting to explain them with ad hoc rationalizations. This has led to your failure to present any coherent explanation of how your proposed flood would work when all available observations are considered at the same time.
It's easy to make up hypotheses when you don't let all those other facts intrude. But, as you said earlier:
It rapidly gets too complex and requires an enormous amount of time...
Yes. Yes it does. That is why current theory has required hundreds of years and the life-work of thousands of dedicated people to develop. How on earth do you see this reality, which you just acknowledged, as supporting your ad hoc "I don't want to talk about all that other stuff right now" style of argument?

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 275 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 401 of 1304 (731659)
05-19-2014 1:29 PM


Re: salt basin
The problem is it's messier elsewhere. It rapidly gets too complex and requires an enormous amount of time ...
But Faith, don't you see that this is what's wrong with your whole argument? You want a single explanation for the whole of geology. But then you won't look at anything but the G.C, and when we indulge you by talking about that, you won't look at anything below the Great Unconformity, and when we draw your attention to the fossils and the footprints lying above it, you say you don't have the time to look at it in detail ... everything is too much for you to look at except the one single fact you think proves you right.
Now we are not like that. We can say: pick any spot on the face of the Earth, and let's talk about the rocks and the fossils there, and we'll show you how this can be explained in terms of real geology.
You say: let's look at just one place, and just look at some facts but not others, and let's only look at the rocks in that location above a certain arbitrary point, and if we restrict ourselves only to the facts that you want us to look at they'll prove how right you are.
Well on that basis you could implore us to only look at ostriches while considering your position that no birds can fly.
Geologists ask me to look at the whole of geology, at all the rocks available. You beg us to focus on a few facts about one portion of the rocks in one location. Who is more likely to be right about geology?

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 402 of 1304 (731660)
05-19-2014 2:37 PM


Re: salt basin
Faith writes:
"Sorting fossils in water" is a strange misrepresentation of the idea of water carrying sediments along with dead and dying creatures, in currents and levels of the water and so on, to some point on land where they get deposited just the way water does carry things and deposit them, as that model of Walther's Law suggests.
Why do you think Walther's Law suggests this?
Could I suggest that you look up Walther's Law of Facies to confirm for yourself that it isn't what you think it is.
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 403 of 1304 (731661)
05-19-2014 2:55 PM


Walther's Law Video
Not sure if this will help, but give it a try:
Or this one:
Here's the link if it doesn't display: Walther's Law by Doug Haywick
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 404 of 1304 (731662)
05-19-2014 3:29 PM


Re: Walther's Law Video
Wonderful quote from Doug Haywick in the Sedimentary Petrology video starting at 12:50:
"All I can tell you is that in order to interpret these things [stratigraphy diagram], to be good enough to interpret them, you have to be a geophysicist. Most geologists who do this don't even get their degrees in geology. They get their degree in geophysics. We don't do that here. But we can give you enough information to make it so that you at least sound like you know what you're doing when you go for that interview with an oil company. And if they like you enough, don't worry, they will send you to school. Because, frankly, they don't trust us for teaching geology, anyway.
"We hear this from the oil companies all the time. Give them as much field experience as possible because people coming out of universities now don't see the rocks. You don't see the rocks, you can't interpret them. This is why you have four field excursions in this class, a bunch in David's class, you've got the field school thing. We're not changing that in any way because the more field experience you have the better you are.
"And if you're good enough and are at least able to interpret things then they'll send you to school and they'll teach you everything you want to know about this, and then one day you may be a geophysicist and never see a rock again in your life."
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 405 of 1304 (731663)
05-19-2014 3:56 PM


Re: Walther's Law Video
Would appreciate someone explaining the video from 20:00 on, in particular how the counts in the matrix at 26:34 are obtained, and then how to interpret the diagram at 29:37.
--Percy

  
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