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Author Topic:   Continuation of Flood Discussion
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 556 of 1304 (731839)
06-30-2014 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 551 by edge
06-30-2014 6:57 PM


Three or more miles deep.
Compacted very hard, soft enough to be fairly easily shaped, hard enough not to slump. Lithification would happen later (ABE: although with all the water trickling through the layers it could already have begun /abe).
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 557 of 1304 (731840)
06-30-2014 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 547 by edge
06-30-2014 6:39 PM


I think tectonic tilting.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 558 of 1304 (731841)
06-30-2014 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 546 by edge
06-30-2014 6:13 PM


Mistake to say bill8ions, should have said hundreds of millions, just writing too fast.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 559 of 1304 (731842)
06-30-2014 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 541 by PaulK
06-30-2014 4:56 PM


Not as soon as deposited but as soon as exposed, and I think the receding Flood water exposed all the cliffs of the Grand Staircase, and cut the canyons there, and the Grand Canyon as well, and the buttes that became Monument Valley.
ABE: If you want evidence that all this occurred at the same time I'd point to what I think is comparable amounts of scree in the erosion skirts or talus of all the formations.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 541 by PaulK, posted 06-30-2014 4:56 PM PaulK has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 560 of 1304 (731844)
06-30-2014 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 544 by edge
06-30-2014 5:55 PM


Re: All that erosion that sculpted around the strata
The point is that if all the strata are in place before this massive erosion occurs it means that massive erosion didn't occur at any point during their laying down. You can see nice neat strata in those hills and buttes in the movie I mentioned, forms carved out of what was of course continuous strata everywhere in between originally, just as you can see them in pictures of all these formations etc etc etc. Of course it can all be rationalized as you all do in OE terms but the simple fact I keep harping on is really very good evidence that OE timing is wrong because otherwise you WOULD have massive erosion at other points in the stack. Yes of course you can rationalize it away. Just hundreds of millions of years of no massive erosion and then suddenly ka wham huge cliffs, canyons, buttes, layers and layers of strata eroded away completely, down to scoured surfaces of Kaibab (Permian) or whatever the sandstone in Monument Valley is. Every time I notice this I'm amazed that the OE explanation continues to reign.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 561 of 1304 (731845)
06-30-2014 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 542 by Percy
06-30-2014 5:09 PM


Re: Erosion of an Entire Valley
Here's an image showing how regions like Monument Valley form:
This is from Geologic Framework of Arizona, page 30.
Good illustration. Here is a real life tepui on the Guyana Shield.
These rocks are harder and older (Precambrian) and make the monuments of Monument Valley look puny. Much more water here, of course, and check out the talus deposits. These features are weathering out of a huge plateau referred to as the Grand Sabana in Venezuela.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 562 of 1304 (731846)
06-30-2014 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 561 by edge
06-30-2014 7:35 PM


Guyana tepui
I can't look at straight flat formations like that without thinking Flood.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 563 of 1304 (731847)
06-30-2014 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 562 by Faith
06-30-2014 7:45 PM


Re: Guyana tepui
I can't look at straight flat formations like that without thinking Flood.
That, perhaps, is a big part of your problem.
Flat formations can be formed in many ways.
You make a flat "formation" when you cook a pancake!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
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"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

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edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 564 of 1304 (731848)
06-30-2014 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 560 by Faith
06-30-2014 7:33 PM


Re: All that erosion that sculpted around the strata
The point is that if all the strata are in place before this massive erosion occurs it means that massive erosion didn't occur at any point during their laying down.
And the problem with that is what?
Besides, we know that there were substantial erosional events below the Unkar, below the Chuar and below the Tapeats.
What are you avoiding them?
You can see nice neat strata in those hills and buttes in the movie I mentioned, forms carved out of what was of course continuous strata everywhere in between originally, just as you can see them in pictures of all these formations etc etc etc. Of course it can all be rationalized as you all do in OE terms but the simple fact I keep harping on is really very good evidence that OE timing is wrong because otherwise you WOULD have massive erosion at other points in the stack.
Explain thsi evidence? Why is it evidence? And why MUST there be erosion at any given point in time?
Yes of course you can rationalize it away. Just hundreds of millions of years of no massive erosion and then suddenly kawham huge cliffs, canyons, buttes, layers and layers of strata eroded away completely, down to scoured surfaces of Kaibab (Permian) or whatever the sandstone in Monument Valley is. Every time I notice this I'm amazed that the OE explanation continues to reign.
Please give us an explanation other than your personal prejudice. Why can we not have a long period of relative stability?
Or is that just your opinion? What is it based on?

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 Message 560 by Faith, posted 06-30-2014 7:33 PM Faith has replied

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edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 565 of 1304 (731849)
06-30-2014 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 562 by Faith
06-30-2014 7:45 PM


Re: Guyana tepui
I can't look at straight flat formations like that without thinking Flood.
Of course.
That was your early brainwashing.
This truth was revealed to you. You did not arrive at this conclusion through careful observation and study.
So this is your evidence? Arbitrary acceptance?

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edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 566 of 1304 (731850)
06-30-2014 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 557 by Faith
06-30-2014 7:24 PM


I think tectonic tilting.
And what a real scientist would do is go out and look for supporting evidence.
For YECs, it means repeating the same assertions over and over until everyone's eyes glaze over.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 557 by Faith, posted 06-30-2014 7:24 PM Faith has replied

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edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 567 of 1304 (731851)
06-30-2014 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 556 by Faith
06-30-2014 7:22 PM


Three or more miles deep.
And where would all of those sediments come from in a global flood?

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 568 of 1304 (731855)
07-01-2014 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 559 by Faith
06-30-2014 7:27 PM


quote:
Not as soon as deposited but as soon as exposed
Then you need decent estimates of the tine that the rock was exposed. Arguing about the date that the material was deposited as in Message 479 is really pointless.
You also need a very good idea of WHAT was exposed. Taking the visible talus skirts as marking the boundary of the original exposure is also foolish, because the erosive forces will also work on the talus, removing it or eroding it further.
quote:
and I think the receding Flood water exposed all the cliffs of the Grand Staircase, and cut the canyons there, and the Grand Canyon as well, and the buttes that became Monument Valley.
Believe what you like, but don't bring question-begging assumptions into your arguments.
quote:
ABE: If you want evidence that all this occurred at the same time I'd point to what I think is comparable amounts of scree in the erosion skirts or talus of all the formations.
That's not really a good argument. First, you're only guessing at the amount (and I'd be very surprised if any hoodoo has a massive skirt like the buttes in Monument Valley). Second you don't have the numbers to show that it would be meaningful even if it was true.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 576 by Faith, posted 07-01-2014 6:23 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 569 of 1304 (731857)
07-01-2014 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 550 by Faith
06-30-2014 6:53 PM


quote:
All that's true but long periods are not required on Flood timing
It's more accurate to say that Flood timing does not provide the long periods required.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 570 of 1304 (731858)
07-01-2014 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 560 by Faith
06-30-2014 7:33 PM


Re: All that erosion that sculpted around the strata
quote:
The point is that if all the strata are in place before this massive erosion occurs it means that massive erosion didn't occur at any point during their laying down
No, it doesn't. It quite obviously doesn't. You can't say "if something is happening now then nothing similar ever happened before" That's silly. And while you might raise quibbles there's no substantial difference between that and your argument as you've expressed it above.
quote:
You can see nice neat strata in those hills and buttes in the movie I mentioned, forms carved out of what was of course continuous strata everywhere in between originally
Just remember that when you make your age estimates...
quote:
Of course it can all be rationalized as you all do in OE terms but the simple fact I keep harping on is really very good evidence that OE timing is wrong because otherwise you WOULD have massive erosion at other points in the stack.
But we DO. And let us remember that in two of the cases your whole point is that the rock formations we see - the hoodoos and the buttes will disappear in a relatively short period of time. You won't see them after they're gone.
quote:
Just hundreds of millions of years of no massive erosion and then suddenly kawham huge cliffs, canyons, buttes, layers and layers of strata eroded away completely, down to scoured surfaces of Kaibab (Permian) or whatever the sandstone in Monument Valley is. Every time I notice this I'm amazed that the OE explanation continues to reign.
Sadly for you, imaginative fantasies aren't good arguments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 560 by Faith, posted 06-30-2014 7:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 577 by Faith, posted 07-01-2014 6:24 AM PaulK has replied

  
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