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Author Topic:   God awful ruling ... SCOTUS screws workers
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 1 of 12 (731852)
06-30-2014 6:42 PM


In an absurd ruling SCOTUS ruled that the religion of the boss is more important than the religion of all the workers:
Breaking News Stories from US and Around the World | MSN News
quote:
Justices: Can't make employers cover contraception
WASHINGTON (AP) A sharply divided Supreme Court ruled Monday that some companies with religious objections can avoid the contraceptives requirement in President Barack Obama's health care overhaul, the first time the high court has declared that businesses can hold religious views under federal law.
The justices' 5-4 decision, splitting conservatives and liberals, means the Obama administration must search for a different way of providing free contraception to women who are covered under the health insurance plans of objecting companies.
Justice Samuel Alito wrote in his majority opinion, over a dissent from the four liberal justices, that forcing companies to pay for methods of women's contraception to which they object violates the 1993 Religious Freedom Restoration Act. He said the ruling is limited and there are ways for the administration to ensure women get the birth control they want.
"President Obama believes that women should make personal health care decisions for themselves rather than their bosses deciding for them," Earnest said. "Today's decision jeopardizes the health of the women who are employed by these companies."
Contraception is among a range of preventive services that must be provided at no extra charge under the health care law that Obama signed in 2010.
If you don't think this is a BIG mistake perhaps you should read
Breaking News Stories from US and Around the World | MSN News
quote:
Read Justice Ginsburg's Passionate 35-Page Dissent of Hobby Lobby Decision
Addressing the majority of her colleagues including all but one of the six men sitting on the Supreme Court Ginsburg wrote:
In the Court’s view, RFRA demands accommodation of a for-profit corporation’s religious beliefs no matter the impact that accommodation may have on third parties who do not share the corporation owners’ religious faithin these cases, thousands of women employed by Hobby Lobby and Conestoga or dependents of persons those corporations employ. Persuaded that Congress enacted RFRA to serve a far less radical purpose, and mindful of the havoc the Court’s judgment can introduce, I dissent.
The justice goes on to criticize the opinion's interpretation of the religious freedom law, writing that "until today, religious exemptions had never been extended to any entity operating in 'the commercial, profit-making world.'"
The reason why is hardly obscure. Religious organizations exist to foster the interests of persons subscribing to the same religious faith. Not so of for-profit corporations. Workers who sustain the operations of those corporations commonly are not drawn from one religious community. Indeed, by law, no religion-based criterion can restrict the work force of for-profit corporations...The distinction between a community made up of believers in the same religion and one embracing persons of diverse beliefs, clear as it is, constantly escapes the Court’s attention. One can only wonder why the Court shuts this key difference from sight.
"In sum," Ginsburg adds about the free exercise claims at the heart of this case,‘[y]our right to swing your arms ends just where the other man’s nose begins.’
Of course the only reason this is a problem is the historic link of medical benefits to employement, won by unions to improve the lot of workers.
With Obamacare and the health care exchanges though, it should be time to break this link, pay the workers in salary what the company and the worker would pay for the company plan, and let the workers get the plan they want: no religious conflict, problem solved.
Employers don't have benefits that pay auto insurance or house insurance. AND this gets back to paying workers a living wage so they can afford house car food and insurance.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 07-02-2014 7:37 PM RAZD has replied

  
AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 12 (731854)
06-30-2014 11:33 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the God awful ruling ... SCOTUS screws workers thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3 of 12 (732017)
07-02-2014 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
06-30-2014 6:42 PM


Its About Time
RAZD writes:
With Obamacare and the health care exchanges though, it should be time to break this link, pay the workers in salary what the company and the worker would pay for the company plan, and let the workers get the plan they want: no religious conflict, problem solved.
Employers don't have benefits that pay auto insurance or house insurance. AND this gets back to paying workers a living wage so they can afford house car food and insurance.
I agree fully. Pay us more and let us buy our own insurance. We will lose at first but eventually everyone will pay for insurance. Which will solve the problem for everyone.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 06-30-2014 6:42 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by hooah212002, posted 07-02-2014 8:54 PM Phat has replied
 Message 6 by RAZD, posted 07-03-2014 7:00 AM Phat has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(5)
Message 4 of 12 (732020)
07-02-2014 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
07-02-2014 7:37 PM


Re: Its About Time
Pay us more and let us buy our own insurance.
While I would also love for that to happen, there is absolutely nothing that indicates that more money for the company would go anywhere other than the CEO/brass. Very few companies have shown that they are willing to share extra profits with employees.
What I would rather see happen, and something I have more confidence in being successful as well as a positive stride forward for US citizens, is for that extra money to go into a proper single payer health plan that EVERYONE is qualified for. Health insurance rates are still outrageous and still have $10,000 deductibles. The idea of buying health insurance is an appalling solution.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 07-02-2014 7:37 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 07-03-2014 12:32 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 7 by RAZD, posted 07-03-2014 7:31 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 8 by NoNukes, posted 07-03-2014 10:30 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 5 of 12 (732030)
07-03-2014 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by hooah212002
07-02-2014 8:54 PM


Re: Its About Time
...there is absolutely nothing that indicates that more money for the company would go anywhere other than the CEO/brass. Very few companies have shown that they are willing to share extra profits with employees.
And thats whats wrong in America,in a nutshell. the American Dream is becoming attainable for fewer and fewer people.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by hooah212002, posted 07-02-2014 8:54 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by ringo, posted 07-03-2014 12:57 PM Phat has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 6 of 12 (732057)
07-03-2014 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
07-02-2014 7:37 PM


Re: Its About Time
I agree fully. Pay us more and let us buy our own insurance. We will lose at first but eventually everyone will pay for insurance. Which will solve the problem for everyone
Some will lose and some will gain -- they may be able to sign up for better insurance than the company buys. But yes, in the end it's win-win, unless ...
... the companies object to paying you enough to enable you to buy the birth control they object to, and claim their religious values mean that they don't need to pay you anything ...
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 07-02-2014 7:37 PM Phat has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 7 of 12 (732058)
07-03-2014 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by hooah212002
07-02-2014 8:54 PM


Re: Its About Time
What I would rather see happen, and something I have more confidence in being successful as well as a positive stride forward for US citizens, is for that extra money to go into a proper single payer health plan that EVERYONE is qualified for. Health insurance rates are still outrageous and still have $10,000 deductibles. The idea of buying health insurance is an appalling solution.
Agreed. Curiously their "majority" decision stated that the government should pay for the birth control -- in effect mandating single payer birth control ...
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by hooah212002, posted 07-02-2014 8:54 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 12 (732084)
07-03-2014 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by hooah212002
07-02-2014 8:54 PM


Re: Its About Time
is for that extra money to go into a proper single payer health plan that EVERYONE is qualified for. Health insurance rates are still outrageous and still have $10,000 deductibles.
So would I. But I cannot even imagine how we could get there from here.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by hooah212002, posted 07-02-2014 8:54 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 9 of 12 (732124)
07-03-2014 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
07-03-2014 12:32 AM


Re: Its About Time
Phat writes:
And thats whats wrong in America,in a nutshell. the American Dream is becoming attainable for fewer and fewer people.
The American Dream has always been marketed to everybody but the intention was not that everybody would be able to afford it. I just heard somebody talk the other day about the "pursuit of happiness" as opposed to actual happiness. The American Dream is the Gold Rush, or Las Vegas - something for nothing. But in the end there are more losers than winners.
I'd like to see an American Reality, even if it's slightly less dreamy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 07-03-2014 12:32 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 07-03-2014 1:27 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 10 of 12 (732142)
07-03-2014 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by ringo
07-03-2014 12:57 PM


Re: Its About Time
Ringo writes:
I'd like to see an American Reality, even if it's slightly less dreamy.
I can deal with reality. What I find it hard to deal with is this whole idea of ever rising prices and expenses and ever shrinking paychecks.
I am at the tale end of the Baby Boom.(born 1959) and my older sister(1950) and I both find ourselves challenged by a world that demands competition(which is ok) yet pays less and less to the participants. If this is reality, I want to be an active voter that shapes this reality. The wealthy folks simply need to take up the slack and pay more of these bills, rather than making everybody pay them.
RAZD, do you think that SCOTUS leans more towards favoring wealthy conservatives or do you think they see the need for help for the middle class?

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by ringo, posted 07-03-2014 12:57 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by RAZD, posted 07-04-2014 7:50 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 12 by ringo, posted 07-04-2014 11:44 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 11 of 12 (732206)
07-04-2014 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
07-03-2014 1:27 PM


Already the worms are crawling out of the can
RAZD, do you think that SCOTUS leans more towards favoring wealthy conservatives or do you think they see the need for help for the middle class?
Yes, certainly in the case of the 5 conservative judges, nor do I see them concerned with the middle class in general, and middle class and lower women in particular.
The women are, and Breyers may be.
We really need another progressive judge. This article makes some telling points:
Page Not Found - Chicago Tribune
Amusingly, it appears that the "narrow" ruling wall is already crumbling ... within days of the ruling, which just shows how bad it was.
Female justices issue searing dissent over new contraceptive case
quote:
The fierce disagreements dividing the Supreme Court over this week’s Hobby Lobby decision were laid bare Thursday in a searing dissent from Justice Sonia Sotomayor, who said the Justices’ decision in a separate contraceptive case undermines confidence in this institution. The dissent was signed by all three female Justices.
Those who are bound by our decisions usually believe they can take us at our word, wrote Sotomayor. Not so today.
The dissent was in an order to grant an emergency request from Wheaton College, an evangelical college in Illinois, on a temporary basis until its appeal goes forward. At issue is the accommodation the Obama administration worked out for religiously-identified non-profits: Sign a form certifying your objection, and the insurer will provide the coverage directly, without the objecting organization having to pay. As of now, 122 non-profits have sued, claiming that signing the opt-out form for someone to get contraception violates their religious liberty. (An attorney for the plaintiffs has repeatedly referred to it as a permission slip for abortion, even though it does not actually cover abortion.)
Let me be absolutely clear: I do not doubt that Wheaton genuinely believes that signing the self-certification form is contrary to its religious beliefs, Sotomayor wrote. But thinking one’s religious beliefs are substantially burdened does not make it so. She added, Not every sincerely felt ‘burden’ is a ‘substantial’ one, and it is for courts, not litigants, to identify which are.
She added, The Court’s actions in this case create unnecessary costs and layers of bureaucracy, and they ignore a simple truth: The Government must be allowed to handle the basic tasks of public administration in a manner that comports with common sense.
Sotomayor also pointed out that the facts of the case hardly met the Court’s high standard for such an emergency injunction. The dissent was co-signed by Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Justice Elena Kagan, but not Justice Stephen Breyer, who also dissented with them in Hobby Lobby.
So suddenly, not a week has passed, and the breadth of the Hobby Looney ruling has spread from 4 birth control methods to all birth control methods and from closely held corporations to more general application.
So much for the narrow minded "narrow ruling" ...
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : subtitle
Edited by RAZD, : ..

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 07-03-2014 1:27 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 12 of 12 (732217)
07-04-2014 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
07-03-2014 1:27 PM


Re: Its About Time
Phat writes:
If this is reality, I want to be an active voter that shapes this reality.
It was a newly-shaped reality that I was talking about. The American Dream is that everybody has an opportunity to become a rich conservative. That's why so many Americans are poor conservatives; they're getting a head start on the only part they can really accomplish.
The reality is that in those instances where somebody does achieve the American Dream, he tends to turn around and oppress the people where he came from.
If you're going to change the reality, it's that kind of conservatism that needs to go.

"I just rattled off that post not caring whether any of it was true or not if you want to know." -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
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