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Author Topic:   Continuation of Flood Discussion
Capt Stormfield
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 428
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 826 of 1304 (732387)
07-07-2014 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 823 by Faith
07-07-2014 12:16 AM


Re: Imagination rules in the sciences of the unwitnessed past
This sagging of the strata would have occurred of course after all the strata were in place, or otherwise they'd have been laid down horizontally as is the habit of sediments; but why does this happen so often where there is salt?
How does salt arrive at its destination?
Why do puddles tend to locate themselves in holes?
Is the middle of a hole sagging, or are the edges pushed up?
So many questions.
If only there were some books on this...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 823 by Faith, posted 07-07-2014 12:16 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 839 by Faith, posted 07-07-2014 1:17 PM Capt Stormfield has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 827 of 1304 (732388)
07-07-2014 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 813 by Faith
07-06-2014 10:12 PM


Re: Imagination rules in the sciences of the unwitnessed past
Faith writes:
Identifying a time period with a slab of sandstone or limestone OUGHT to be recognized as so clearly ludicrous that you'd abandon the idea, but no, you insist you have evidence for your fairy tales that live only in the limestone and the sandstone.
I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say we would find it tremendously exciting to find evidence pointing us in new geological directions, but you have no evidence and apparently can offer nothing more than name-calling. Calling the views of modern geology ludicrous is as pointless as calling the law of gravity ludicrous. What you must instead do is provide evidence that demonstrates that the views of modern geology are ludicrous. At present all the evidence indicates there was never any global flood 4300 years ago, and that the Earth is very ancient.
Saying things like, "When I look around the Grand Canyon region I see the effects of the flood everywhere," only reveals your ignorance of geological processes and natural physical laws.
It shouldn't be necessary to keep repeating this, but I don't think any of us particularly cares whether the Earth is young or old. What we all care about is interpreting the evidence using our knowledge of geological processes and the natural laws of the universe. If there had been a global flood 4300 years ago the evidence for it would be everywhere. As it is, there is no evidence for it anywhere. Because it didn't happen.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 813 by Faith, posted 07-06-2014 10:12 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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herebedragons
Member (Idle past 847 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 828 of 1304 (732389)
07-07-2014 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 820 by Faith
07-06-2014 10:53 PM


Re: overlooked
If moving them makes them not lake sediments then what's to make them lake sediments at all?
Are you for real? Depositional environments are identified by the... hhhmm, how to put this... by the environment they are deposited in. You can't move sediment, deposit it in a different environment and expect it to maintain its original identity. How could that be?
Maybe what you are trying to suggest is that all sediments are flood deposits that simply look like they were deposited in a different environment. Maybe you could explain how (what appears to be) aeolian sands, limestones, lake sediments, swamps, evaporites, etc. can all form in the same depositional environment.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 820 by Faith, posted 07-06-2014 10:53 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 840 by Faith, posted 07-07-2014 1:21 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 829 of 1304 (732390)
07-07-2014 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 814 by Faith
07-06-2014 10:13 PM


Re: overlooked
Faith writes:
OK by me if there were strata above the Claron.
If the region was uplifted during the flood to become an area of net erosion, then how was the Claron deposited post-flood? How were the layers above the Claron deposited post-flood?
AbE: In reading subsequent posts it seems you have changed your position and are now claiming that the Claron and the above layers were deposited during the flood, and that the lacustrine deposits were transported from a pre-flood location by the flood to their current location. So this returns us to an old question. Given that all our evidence indicates the bigger the flood the greater the random destruction, what evidence and reasoning leads you to believe a global flood would neatly transport landscapes (including nests, eggs, burrows, stream beds, etc.) from one location to another?
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : AbE.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 814 by Faith, posted 07-06-2014 10:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 841 by Faith, posted 07-07-2014 1:22 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Capt Stormfield
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 428
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


(1)
Message 830 of 1304 (732391)
07-07-2014 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 823 by Faith
07-07-2014 12:16 AM


Re: Imagination rules in the sciences of the unwitnessed past
...but what you mean by "sand dunes" is an incredibly thick block of sandstone that is crossbedded like dunes and there rather definitively ends its resemblance to anything dunish...
Other than being made of sand and being arranged in the shape of a dune, are there any other characteristics that a thing could have that would make it more "dunish"?
I'm curious as to just when a dune shaped pile of sand ceases to be a dune and becomes a mysterious flood sediment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 823 by Faith, posted 07-07-2014 12:16 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 833 by edge, posted 07-07-2014 10:11 AM Capt Stormfield has seen this message but not replied
 Message 843 by Faith, posted 07-07-2014 1:24 PM Capt Stormfield has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 847 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 831 of 1304 (732395)
07-07-2014 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 819 by Faith
07-06-2014 10:51 PM


Re: Imagination rules in the sciences of the unwitnessed past
All the STRATA of the Geo column are flood sediments.
You do mean all the strata of the geological column in the GC. You can't mean all the strata all over the world. There are plenty of places where lava flows separate features of the geological column. How does lava flow underwater and NOT produce the characteristics of underwater lava flows?
If there is even 1 place where there is sub-aerial lava flows within the geological column it falsifies the statement that ALL strata are flood sediments. The Cardenas basalts are an example of the lower limit of flood deposits within the GC area.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 819 by Faith, posted 07-06-2014 10:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 844 by Faith, posted 07-07-2014 1:26 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 832 of 1304 (732397)
07-07-2014 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 823 by Faith
07-07-2014 12:16 AM


Re: Imagination rules in the sciences of the unwitnessed past
Correct me if I'm wrong of course, but what you mean by "sand dunes" is an incredibly thick block of sandstone that is crossbedded like dunes and there rather definitively ends its resemblance to anything dunish; ...
Consider yourself corrected.
I'm talking about planar cross-bedded clean sandstones with long fore-set beds, fine-grained, extremely well-sorted, often ventifacted, and sometimes including tetrapod tracks.
... what you mean by stream beds is channels buried deep in the strata that look like water once ran in them;
Yes, very much like the stream bed down in the valley below my house; the kind you don't see under the ocean.
... what you mean by swamps I don't know but I'd guess something to do with fossils of the kinds of life that usually inhabit swamps;
Yes, inhabited by trees, dinosaurs, etc. You know, terrestrial creatures ... the kind that don't live under deep flood conditions.
... and the evaporates of course you also assume were once on the surface but may never have been. (we've left this topic behind it seems but I've wondered why salt beds seen in cross section usually occur where the strata have been severely deformed, sometimes into hammock-like shapes. This sagging of the strata would have occurred of course after all the strata were in place, or otherwise they'd have been laid down horizontally as is the habit of sediments; but why does this happen so often where there is salt? Do you know?)
Yes, the ones with dessication cracks and evaporative minerals sorted out by the order in which they precipitate. And yes, they cause deformation because they either dissolve when exposed to fresh groundwaters or they deform readily under uneven loads.
ETA: Oh, yes, they also have lateral limits. Kind of like lakes...
If you're counting on your rhetorical god's being benevolent and understanding in dealing with your eternal soul shouldn't you consider it important to have evidence for it? Maybe he's like me and wouldn't that be just terrible for you? According to you anyway although I'm not sure why since I'm just a nice little YEC who thinks Geology is strangely blind to the evidence for the Great Flood.
You make my point. Gods are not that important to me. A nice, comfortable fantasy, but really of no interest.
And certainly, the only reason I'm here is for the entertainment.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 823 by Faith, posted 07-07-2014 12:16 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 845 by Faith, posted 07-07-2014 1:33 PM edge has replied
 Message 857 by Faith, posted 07-07-2014 3:12 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 833 of 1304 (732398)
07-07-2014 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 830 by Capt Stormfield
07-07-2014 8:33 AM


Re: Imagination rules in the sciences of the unwitnessed past
Other than being made of sand and being arranged in the shape of a dune, are there any other characteristics that a thing could have that would make it more "dunish"?
I'm curious as to just when a dune shaped pile of sand ceases to be a dune and becomes a mysterious flood sediment.
There are features in the near-shore environment that can look like dunes. IIRC, they are made by strong longshore currents. The problem is that they are coarser grained, less pure and do not have the planar (like slanting boards) cross beds.
ETA: Oh, and they definitely don't have footprints nor clam shells such as those that occur on beaches.
Here is an article with some stunning pictures:
http://www.geosciences.unl.edu/~dloope/pdf/GeologyToday.pdf
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 830 by Capt Stormfield, posted 07-07-2014 8:33 AM Capt Stormfield has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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edge
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 834 of 1304 (732399)
07-07-2014 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 827 by Percy
07-07-2014 8:27 AM


Re: Imagination rules in the sciences of the unwitnessed past
Saying things like, "When I look around the Grand Canyon region I see the effects of the flood everywhere," only reveals your ignorance of geological processes and natural physical laws.
Heh, heh...
Especially when Faith has never been there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 827 by Percy, posted 07-07-2014 8:27 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 835 of 1304 (732400)
07-07-2014 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 825 by herebedragons
07-07-2014 8:09 AM


Re: Imagination rules in the sciences of the unwitnessed past
I gave you sincere advice about how to present your ideas as scientific but you have completely ignored it and instead continue to stick to these "YEC methods" which involve a-priori conclusions and ignoring evidence.
I was hoping that by providing evidence with my posts that Faith would catch on, even the most faint of evidence is better than none.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 825 by herebedragons, posted 07-07-2014 8:09 AM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 836 by herebedragons, posted 07-07-2014 10:37 AM edge has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 847 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 836 of 1304 (732402)
07-07-2014 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 835 by edge
07-07-2014 10:16 AM


Re: Imagination rules in the sciences of the unwitnessed past
The sad thing is, she could present this in a scientific way. The problem for Faith and YECs in general is that they are unwilling to accept the conclusions of a scientific process. Instead, they start with a conclusion and work backwards. There is little way to reconcile that.
I thought about starting a thread that looked at one section (I was thinking the contact between the Redwall, Muav and the Tempe Butte would be a good one) and presenting it from a YEC point of view as an example of how to present an alternative hypothesis. I just don't think I'll have time to do that though and Faith doesn't seem to be willing to approach it that way, so ...
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 835 by edge, posted 07-07-2014 10:16 AM edge has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4319
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 837 of 1304 (732409)
07-07-2014 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 833 by edge
07-07-2014 10:11 AM


Re: Imagination rules in the sciences of the unwitnessed past
Here is an article with some stunning pictures:
http://www.geosciences.unl.edu/~dloope/pdf/GeologyToday.pdf
Thanks for posting that. I had forgotten about The Wave. It is one of the places I would like to photograph some day and I would need to plan well in advance.
In the Spring of last year I came through Snow Canyon north of St. George, UT and photographed the lithified dune formations there that are also Navajo sandstone. My grandson and I are going back down in a few weeks to photograph some more and then on to the Grand Canyon.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 838 of 1304 (732416)
07-07-2014 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 825 by herebedragons
07-07-2014 8:09 AM


Re: Imagination rules in the sciences of the unwitnessed past
I must have missed the advice you say you gave about how to do YEC scientifically. Would you mind repeating it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 825 by herebedragons, posted 07-07-2014 8:09 AM herebedragons has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 839 of 1304 (732418)
07-07-2014 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 826 by Capt Stormfield
07-07-2014 8:20 AM


Re: Imagination rules in the sciences of the unwitnessed past
If that's the only reason no problem, but I still have to wonder why the strata sagged in those places. It's strange.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 826 by Capt Stormfield, posted 07-07-2014 8:20 AM Capt Stormfield has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 840 of 1304 (732420)
07-07-2014 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 828 by herebedragons
07-07-2014 8:28 AM


Re: overlooked
Are you for real? Depositional environments are identified by the... hhhmm, how to put this... by the environment they are deposited in. You can't move sediment, deposit it in a different environment and expect it to maintain its original identity. How could that be?
Maybe what you are trying to suggest is that all sediments are flood deposits that simply look like they were deposited in a different environment.
Determining the depositional environment is about the contents of the rock, right? What if the sediment was merely transported, then the whole idea is a crock.
Maybe you could explain how (what appears to be) aeolian sands, limestones, lake sediments, swamps, evaporites, etc. can all form in the same depositional environment.
See above. The crossbedded sandstone is a problem for the Flood, and I was asking about the lake sediments, but I'm not sure any of the rest of it is, as I believe I indicated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 828 by herebedragons, posted 07-07-2014 8:28 AM herebedragons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 848 by edge, posted 07-07-2014 2:09 PM Faith has replied

  
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