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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 2761 of 5179 (733340)
07-16-2014 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2760 by mram10
07-16-2014 11:48 AM


Why are we arguing gun control, when alcohol related deaths are much more frequent?
This thread was in direct response to the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting.
But gun crimes makes more sensational news. And alcoholism gets no respect:
quote:
Alcoholism is a disease, but it's the only one you can get yelled at for having. Goddamn it Otto, you are an alcoholic. Goddamn it Otto, you have Lupis... one of those two doesn't sound right.
-Mitch Hedberg
Why are we blaming an inanimate object for the problems PEOPLE are causing?
People are using said inanimate object for killing other people.
As for criminals, why should we give them another chance to rape/kill or steal from someone else that cannot protect themselves?
Stealing isn't so bad, but rapers and murderers should not get a 2nd chance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2760 by mram10, posted 07-16-2014 11:48 AM mram10 has seen this message but not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 2762 of 5179 (733344)
07-16-2014 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 2760 by mram10
07-16-2014 11:48 AM


mram10 writes:
Why are we arguing gun control, when alcohol related deaths are much more frequent?
We have alcohol control too. Are the people who argue against gun control arguing against alcohol control too?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2760 by mram10, posted 07-16-2014 11:48 AM mram10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2764 by mram10, posted 07-17-2014 12:09 AM ringo has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 2763 of 5179 (733347)
07-16-2014 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 2760 by mram10
07-16-2014 11:48 AM


mram writes:
As for criminals, why should we give them another chance to rape/kill or steal from someone else that cannot protect themselves?
If a proliferation of guns made people better protected from crime the US would be the safest and most law abiding place in the developed world.
It isn't.
For murder rates the US comes joint second worst (Mexico tops the list) of OECD countries. Link

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2760 by mram10, posted 07-16-2014 11:48 AM mram10 has seen this message but not replied

mram10
Member (Idle past 3502 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 08-07-2012


Message 2764 of 5179 (733396)
07-17-2014 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 2762 by ringo
07-16-2014 12:32 PM


We already have numerous gun laws, thus gun control. Why do we need more. Those committing crimes are breaking numerous laws already, so what will more laws bring?
As for america being second to last, where are you finding this info?? I have been around the world in numerous jobs in differing lives(jobs) and can name numerous countries that have mass killing daily.
Also, murder rates are not gun centric. Love to see a breakdown of each type.
Vehicles can be used just like guns to kill people. Should we get rid of cars? No, because they are useful and being used wrong, just like guns. With the average response time in my city of over 10 min (detroit was much worse), I would prefer to have the chance to defend myself from a criminal. If you do not want that, then please give me your guns
Does anyone even know the true meaning of the 2nd??? Jefferson said it best, when he made it clear it is to defend the people from tyranny by the gov't. If you believe it isn't possible, then I cannot help you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2762 by ringo, posted 07-16-2014 12:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2766 by NoNukes, posted 07-17-2014 12:29 AM mram10 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2768 by Minnemooseus, posted 07-17-2014 12:49 AM mram10 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2776 by ringo, posted 07-17-2014 12:12 PM mram10 has seen this message but not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 2765 of 5179 (733400)
07-17-2014 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 2760 by mram10
07-16-2014 11:48 AM


Why are we arguing gun control, when alcohol related deaths are much more frequent?
I guess because when you drink, I don't get cirrhosis of the liver. If that was how it worked, we'd be doing a lot more to control alcohol.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2760 by mram10, posted 07-16-2014 11:48 AM mram10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2767 by mram10, posted 07-17-2014 12:39 AM Dr Adequate has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 2766 of 5179 (733402)
07-17-2014 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 2764 by mram10
07-17-2014 12:09 AM


We already have numerous gun laws, thus gun control. Why do we need more.
I was going to address one or more of the questions you raised, but doing so would simply mean repeating answers already given to these questions. That does not mean that your questions are not thoughtful or unimportant.
What it does mean is that perhaps when you enter a thread that already has 2700 posts, a good place to start might be looking at some of the responses already made and seeing why you might not think those posts are insufficient.
Jefferson said lots of things. Some of which I admire, and others of which I find far from compelling. One thing I find amusing is that many people who champion Jefferson's stance of the 2nd amendment find Jefferson's thoughts on the 1st Amendment intolerable.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2764 by mram10, posted 07-17-2014 12:09 AM mram10 has seen this message but not replied

mram10
Member (Idle past 3502 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 08-07-2012


Message 2767 of 5179 (733404)
07-17-2014 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 2765 by Dr Adequate
07-17-2014 12:24 AM


I have never blacked out due to shooting too much
I have never woke up next to a perfect stranger due to a gun in my hand
I have never been in a traffic accident due to my gun on the seat
Alcohol changes your mind set and makes you unaware of your decisions, thus putting those around you in danger.
Guns do not. Please argue this intelligibly

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2765 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-17-2014 12:24 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2769 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-17-2014 1:13 AM mram10 has seen this message but not replied

Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 2768 of 5179 (733407)
07-17-2014 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 2764 by mram10
07-17-2014 12:09 AM


Vehicles can be used just like guns to kill people. Should we get rid of cars? No, because they are useful and being used wrong, just like guns.
Vehicles are methods of transportation, and going outside of that primary use, could be used a weapons. Guns are weapons, and outside of that primary use, they're dangerous versions of firecrackers.
Does anyone even know the true meaning of the 2nd??? Jefferson said it best, when he made it clear it is to defend the people from tyranny by the gov't. If you believe it isn't possible, then I cannot help you.
I have no problem with most anyone bearing arms such as existed at the time the 2nd amendment was written. But now days, an individual can accumulate an arsenal that could do a pretty good job of outgunning a revolutionary era army.
I'm not concerned about government tyranny. I'm concerned about some heavily armed nut-job who could pull off some pretty heavy tyranny all by himself.
If you want to play with weapons of war, join the army.
Moose
"It's not the bullet that kills you, it's the hole" - Laurie Anderson

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith
"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien
"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2764 by mram10, posted 07-17-2014 12:09 AM mram10 has seen this message but not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(5)
Message 2769 of 5179 (733415)
07-17-2014 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 2767 by mram10
07-17-2014 12:39 AM


I have never blacked out due to shooting too much
I have never woke up next to a perfect stranger due to a gun in my hand
I have never been in a traffic accident due to my gun on the seat
Alcohol changes your mind set and makes you unaware of your decisions, thus putting those around you in danger.
Guns do not. Please argue this intelligibly
But again, I have no problem with you blacking out, or with you waking up next to a stranger. I care even less about those contingencies than I do about you damaging your liver. It's no skin off my nose. I do have a problem with you drinking and driving, because it endangers me, and guess what, that's illegal. We did that.
Alcohol changes your mind set and makes you unaware of your decisions, thus putting those around you in danger.
Guns do not.
Holding a gun does change your mindset.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/...gun-inhibits-mentalization
Expert: Holding a gun changes the way people perceive others, objects
Apparently, it makes you more aggressive and more likely to see threats that aren't there ... I don't know if anyone's done research on whether it also makes you more likely to sing karaoke.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2767 by mram10, posted 07-17-2014 12:39 AM mram10 has seen this message but not replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 2770 of 5179 (733419)
07-17-2014 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 2759 by New Cat's Eye
07-16-2014 10:52 AM


quote:
So why do you want to allow every citizen to be armed?
I don't.
So you advocate gun control? why are we arguing?
quote:
Call it what you will, semantics, the end result is death, in many cases for a minor crime, or simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
But you think burglary is a minor crime... I think that someone breaking into my house is a major crime, very near the top.
A crime that the burglar deserves to die for?
quote:
to make their actions proportionate to the "need"?
There is nobody else there to assess the need besides the person who is defending themself.
And you have admitted that you don't think the average Joe is equipped to make the right decision in such a case, but yet, you defend (or at least appear to be defending their right) to arm themselves? weird.
That's a pretty bad example of "shooting someone dead for burglary".
Fair enough, I understood your list to be homicides, but a cursory seach will throw up countless examples of burglars being shot dead.
But by your own admission,
quote:
Do you think that everyone has the skills and the level head to make a correct decision in this case?
No.

So, in this case no one was killed, but the next guy? and the next? will they be able to fire that warning shot over the head or will the cock up and blow someone's brains out?
You have some massive conflicts here:
On the one hand
- You believe everyone has the right to self defense,
- You believe removing the capacity for lethal force "eliminates" a persons ability to defend themselves
- You believe in the right to bear arms of US (world?) citizens
however
- You do not believe the average person has the ability to make a sound judgement about how and when to use a firearm
- You do not believe that death is a suitable punishment for any crime
So, you want to give people who are not equipped to judge, a firearm and hence the ability to instantaneously kill someone with the twitch of a finger, while also believing that no one should die for any crime...
Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.
Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.
Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2759 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-16-2014 10:52 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2772 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-17-2014 9:53 AM Heathen has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2771 of 5179 (733437)
07-17-2014 8:29 AM


Guns Cause Deaths
1 hostage, 2 suspects dead in California after high-speed chase and gun battle with police
Officers respond to a bank robbery in progress, the robbers take hostages and escape in an SUV, the police give chase, massive gun battle ensues. One hostage and two suspects are killed. Neighborhoods are peppered with bullets, fortunately no one else is hurt or killed.
Possible alternative scenario: Police hold their fire and do not engage in pursuit. Hostages are later released, no one is killed or endangered, detectives take over. This is what would likely have happened if police had no guns.
Reading that article felt like watching an episode of The Untouchables (late 1950's TV show about 1930s Chicago).
--Percy

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 2772 of 5179 (733443)
07-17-2014 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 2770 by Heathen
07-17-2014 2:35 AM


So you advocate gun control?
I don't advocate.
You asked me why I want to allow every citizen to be armed. I could think of citizens that I wouldn't want to allow to be armed, so the answer to your question is "I don't".
why are we arguing?
Firstly, you confused self-defense as being the victim administering the death penalty to the perpetrator for committing a crime.
Then, you said that the average person shouldn't have a gun because of the gun's capacity to be lethal.
A crime that the burglar deserves to die for?
For the fifth time now: I don't think anyone deserves to die for any crime.
And you have admitted that you don't think the average Joe is equipped to make the right decision in such a case
No I haven't. You asked me if I thought everyone has the skills and level head to make the right decision.
Since I could think of people who do not have those skills, or others without the level head, then the answer to your question was "no".
But I do think the average person is equipped to make those decisions. Unfortunately, when you put someone in the position of having to defend themselves, there is nobody else there to be the one to make the decision.
I'd rather error on the side of the victim though, because, you know, the perpetrator is the one who is on the offense. They can just not assault people. Why should they get any benefit of the doubt?
So, in this case no one was killed, but the next guy? and the next?
Excuse me? Why are you trying so hard to defend people who are breaking into other peoples' houses? Why should I just accept that there are going to be more and more people breaking into houses and not allow the victims to do anything about it? Why don't you do anything to stop people from breaking into houses? Why are you so focused on the victims and their right to defend themselves?
Where does this love of the criminal and hatred of the victim stem from? What is wrong with you?
You have some massive conflicts here:
On the one hand
- You believe everyone has the right to self defense,
- You believe removing the capacity for lethal force "eliminates" a persons ability to defend themselves
- You believe in the right to bear arms of US (world?) citizens
however
- You do not believe the average person has the ability to make a sound judgement about how and when to use a firearm
That last one is wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2770 by Heathen, posted 07-17-2014 2:35 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2773 by Heathen, posted 07-17-2014 10:31 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 2773 of 5179 (733446)
07-17-2014 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 2772 by New Cat's Eye
07-17-2014 9:53 AM


I don't think anyone deserves to die for any crime
so you don't need a gun to shoot at burglars then.
I'd rather error on the side of the victim though,
The victim is often the person shot dead when mistaken for an intruder, for being in the wrong neighbourhood at the wrong time, for being a child who picks up a parent's gun, for being in the cinema/office/classroom when a nutball goes postal.
less guns = less gun deaths.
Excuse me? Why are you trying so hard to defend people who are breaking into other peoples' houses?
You mean people who are suspected of breaking into other peoples houses?
well, because I believe in due process, I believe that everyone has the right to be tried in a court of law, and not have their brains summarily blown out by a frightened gun toting idiot.
Edited by Admin, : Fix underlining.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2772 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-17-2014 9:53 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2774 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-17-2014 10:41 AM Heathen has replied
 Message 2775 by Diomedes, posted 07-17-2014 11:18 AM Heathen has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 2774 of 5179 (733447)
07-17-2014 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 2773 by Heathen
07-17-2014 10:31 AM


so you don't need a gun to shoot at burglars then.
I've talked about needing a gun exactly zero time in our discussion.
The victim is often the person shot dead when mistaken for an intruder, for being in the wrong neighbourhood at the wrong time, for being a child who picks up a parent's gun, for being in the cinema/office/classroom when a nutball goes postal.
You just changed the subject. We were talking about someone breaking into someone else's home.
You mean people who are suspected of breaking into other peoples houses?
No, I mean someone who has broken into someone else's home.
well, because I believe in due process, I believe that everyone has the right to be tried in a court of law, and not have their brains summarily blown out by a frightened gun toting idiot.
As I thought, you don't think that people have the right to defend themselves. That's terrible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2773 by Heathen, posted 07-17-2014 10:31 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2802 by Heathen, posted 07-18-2014 2:16 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 2775 of 5179 (733450)
07-17-2014 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 2773 by Heathen
07-17-2014 10:31 AM


well, because I believe in due process, I believe that everyone has the right to be tried in a court of law, and not have their brains summarily blown out by a frightened gun toting idiot.
I guess I have to ask this question: are you indicating that people should not take any action if an intruder is in their home? Whether it be a burglar or someone who has more sinister motives?
For example, if I don't opt for a gun, am I allowed to use standard physical force to stop a burglar from stealing my property?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2773 by Heathen, posted 07-17-2014 10:31 AM Heathen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2777 by Percy, posted 07-17-2014 1:42 PM Diomedes has replied
 Message 2778 by Diomedes, posted 07-17-2014 1:56 PM Diomedes has not replied

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