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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2791 of 5179 (733501)
07-17-2014 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 2790 by New Cat's Eye
07-17-2014 4:56 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:
I just don't get this tolerance for criminal action and intolerance victim action.
I'm not intolerant of victim action. I'm intolerant of stupid action.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2790 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-17-2014 4:56 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(2)
Message 2792 of 5179 (733504)
07-17-2014 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 2790 by New Cat's Eye
07-17-2014 4:56 PM


I just don't get this tolerance for criminal action and intolerance victim action.
C'mon CS - you know full well that people who oppose widespread gun ownership, don't do so out of any tolerance of criminal action. We do so because, in general, widespread gun ownership leads to more deaths than highly restricted gun ownership. In general - those are the key words.
I will readily concede that there will be circumstances in which an individual possessing a gun, will result in them avoiding death or serious violence or violation. Yes, those circumstances exist. But they exist rarely.
In general, in a society, widespread gun ownership will lead to more violent deaths than are prevented in the circumstances I've just referred to.
What I perceive is an almost visceral, emotional attachment amongst the defenders of widespread gun ownership to the concept of an absolute right to self defence. Nothing is more important. Nothing is more fundamental or absolute than the right to kill in defence of yourself and your property. And a criminal's life (and for that matter, the lives of all the innocent and accidental victims of widespread gun ownership) have to take a backseat to that all-conquering, near divine right to self-defence.
I do get - I really do understand - that emotion. There's some sort of feeling of righteousness to being able to defend yourself in the most absolute way possible.
But I feel that we should, in the pursuit of the sanctity of life, in the pursuit of a civilised society, and in the pursuit of a safe environment, seek to limit our right to self defence to the most reasonable extent we can. And advocating a society in which we allow every person to arm themselves to the teeth with lethal weapons, strikes me as advocating a very unreasonable restraint on self-defence.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2790 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-17-2014 4:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2794 by Coragyps, posted 07-17-2014 7:37 PM vimesey has not replied
 Message 2814 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-18-2014 12:36 PM vimesey has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2793 of 5179 (733508)
07-17-2014 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2790 by New Cat's Eye
07-17-2014 4:56 PM


I just don't get this tolerance for criminal action and intolerance victim action.
Another strawman. Come on you're better than that.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2790 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-17-2014 4:56 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 2794 of 5179 (733511)
07-17-2014 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 2792 by vimesey
07-17-2014 5:30 PM


What I perceive is an almost visceral, emotional attachment amongst the defenders of widespread gun ownership to the concept of an absolute right to self defence. Nothing is more important.
I hear a LOT of this here in the wilds of West Texas, some of it from people with advanced degrees. NONE of them, to my knowledge, ever take a portable lightning rod with them when they golf or fish, even in the month of May when violent thunderstorms are pretty common. But they will take a pistol - I presume for self defense against all the other folks that don't have lightning rods, either.
And yes, there are a fair number of gun deaths out here - three that I know of in this county of 15,000 people so far this year. None at the golf course. None at the lake, either, but it's dry, so there isn't much fishing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2792 by vimesey, posted 07-17-2014 5:30 PM vimesey has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2795 of 5179 (733520)
07-17-2014 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2787 by Diomedes
07-17-2014 4:03 PM


Diomedes writes:
Circling back, is your ideal scenario a country with absolutely no firearms in the hands of civilians?
I don't really have an ideal scenario, but I do think we'd have a better chance of reducing gun deaths if more people accepted that the more guns the more gun deaths.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2787 by Diomedes, posted 07-17-2014 4:03 PM Diomedes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2796 by mram10, posted 07-17-2014 9:32 PM Percy has replied

mram10
Member (Idle past 3502 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 08-07-2012


Message 2796 of 5179 (733521)
07-17-2014 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 2795 by Percy
07-17-2014 9:04 PM


I will keep my guns to protect my family and you guys are welcome to waive your right to them. You are also free to waive anti-biotics, healthy living and anything else that is considered a safety measure.
For those that want to wait for the police, set a timer to 10 minutes, best case and picture yourself in your home with a couple perps with knives etc. They can do a lot of damage in 1 minute, let alone 10.
Guns don't kill people, people do I question the sanity of any fool that says otherwise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2795 by Percy, posted 07-17-2014 9:04 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2797 by Coragyps, posted 07-17-2014 9:35 PM mram10 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2798 by Minnemooseus, posted 07-17-2014 9:52 PM mram10 has replied
 Message 2804 by vimesey, posted 07-18-2014 4:02 AM mram10 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2808 by Percy, posted 07-18-2014 9:29 AM mram10 has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 2797 of 5179 (733522)
07-17-2014 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 2796 by mram10
07-17-2014 9:32 PM


Oh, do you have a portable lightning rod?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2796 by mram10, posted 07-17-2014 9:32 PM mram10 has seen this message but not replied

Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 2798 of 5179 (733526)
07-17-2014 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2796 by mram10
07-17-2014 9:32 PM


So, you like people having weapons of mass destruction?
Guns don't kill people, people do. I question the sanity of any fool that says otherwise.
People use guns to kill people.
I suppose we could track down all the people with guns, and take the people away from the guns (as opposed to taking guns away from people). After all, it's the people that are dangerous, not the guns.
By the way, when's the last time you heard of a drive by stabbing? Or a drive by clubbing?
The tool is important, and a gun is a very dangerous and effective tool.
Moose

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith
"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien
"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2796 by mram10, posted 07-17-2014 9:32 PM mram10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2799 by mram10, posted 07-17-2014 10:07 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

mram10
Member (Idle past 3502 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 08-07-2012


Message 2799 of 5179 (733531)
07-17-2014 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 2798 by Minnemooseus
07-17-2014 9:52 PM


Re: So, you like people having weapons of mass destruction?
Your arguments are illogical. You have shown yourself to be a person that regurgitates talking points and lacks the ability to think reasonably.
You are blaming an inanimate object???? Stabbings? Do you get out much? Stabbings and beatings are very frequent. Continue to drink the kool-aid though. Check the FBI stats for murders and assaults by weapon type. Look at the states that have the most, then look at their gun laws.
Again, feel free to exercise your right to be unarmed. As for me, I want the criminal to fear me and those who I am responsible to protect. Also, I am the one who will shoot an intruder, because he is there with evil intentions.
IT IS NOT THE GUNS. IT IS THE PEOPLE.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2798 by Minnemooseus, posted 07-17-2014 9:52 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2800 by Coragyps, posted 07-17-2014 10:28 PM mram10 has replied
 Message 2811 by ringo, posted 07-18-2014 11:54 AM mram10 has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 2800 of 5179 (733534)
07-17-2014 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 2799 by mram10
07-17-2014 10:07 PM


Re: So, you like people having weapons of mass destruction?
You want the criminal to fear you.....
Do you have a "protected by Glock" sign in the front yard? If you do, perhaps the burglars will move down the street to a house with a "protected by parakeets" sign. But barring that, how the hell do they know who to fear? And, besides, a nice Glock pawns for a lot more money than a DVD player or even an XBox! Certainly more than a cageful of parakeets.
Don't be calling Moose's arguments illogical until you have vetted your own. Motes and beams, y'know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2799 by mram10, posted 07-17-2014 10:07 PM mram10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2801 by mram10, posted 07-17-2014 11:20 PM Coragyps has not replied

mram10
Member (Idle past 3502 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 08-07-2012


Message 2801 of 5179 (733538)
07-17-2014 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 2800 by Coragyps
07-17-2014 10:28 PM


Re: So, you like people having weapons of mass destruction?
Coragyps,
Very gentlemanly of you to defend moose
As for my arguments, please read above so I don't have to spell it out again. If enough criminals get killed by law abiding citizens protecting themselves, they will start to question their illegal and wicked ways.
Your arguments are ridiculous, but I expected it, so luckily it wasn't a surprise
Please feel free to disarm yourself. You have my utmost support. Many criminals can be talked into changing their ways.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2800 by Coragyps, posted 07-17-2014 10:28 PM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2803 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-18-2014 3:45 AM mram10 has replied
 Message 2812 by ringo, posted 07-18-2014 11:57 AM mram10 has seen this message but not replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1282 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 2802 of 5179 (733544)
07-18-2014 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 2774 by New Cat's Eye
07-17-2014 10:41 AM


I've talked about needing a gun exactly zero time in our discussion.
So a gun isn't necessary for self defence? I agree.
You just changed the subject. We were talking about someone breaking into someone else's home.
We were talking about a whole range of crimes, (which you presented) where use of a firearm was involved as a"self defence" measure. I have been consistently questioning the ability of people to judge when appropriate force was required.. this is entirely the subject.
No, I mean someone who has broken into someone else's home.
So, you don't think a court should decide if a crime has been commited?
As I thought, you don't think that people have the right to defend themselves. That's terrible.
Bollocks. stop misrepresenting me. You equate due process and the principal of innocent until proven guilty with taking away peoples right to defend themselves? bizarre.
I don't think that anyone should get to act as Judge, jury and executioner in an fear fueled moment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2774 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-17-2014 10:41 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2809 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-18-2014 10:19 AM Heathen has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 2803 of 5179 (733546)
07-18-2014 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 2801 by mram10
07-17-2014 11:20 PM


Re: So, you like people having weapons of mass destruction?
If enough criminals get killed by law abiding citizens protecting themselves, they will start to question their illegal and wicked ways.
You'd be astonished how little time dead people spend on introspection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2801 by mram10, posted 07-17-2014 11:20 PM mram10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2821 by mram10, posted 07-19-2014 12:18 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 2804 of 5179 (733547)
07-18-2014 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 2796 by mram10
07-17-2014 9:32 PM


Guns don't kill people, people do
I've always seen that as an incomplete statement. The fuller and more useful phrase is: "Guns don't kill people, people do - but guns sure do make it a heap easier to !"

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2796 by mram10, posted 07-17-2014 9:32 PM mram10 has seen this message but not replied

petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 2805 of 5179 (733549)
07-18-2014 5:09 AM


It doesn't add up
Well according to the opinions presented here, in most part, I should live in the state with the highest homicide rate.
I live in Wyoming which has the highest rate of firearm ownership of any state. 59.7% of the people in Wyoming own firearms.( think about that since people under 18 can not buy a gun and that's 23% of the population)
The homicide rate is 1.4/100,000 and from guns .9/100,000.
That is comparable to the homicide rates in Western Europe for the most part.
Lot of talk here about Texas where only 35.9% of people own guns. Their homicide rate is 5/100,000 and 3.2/100,000 for guns.
Why is that?
I don't think it's related to gun ownership, pro or con. At least I don't see any relationship there.
Maryland, 21.3% gun ownership, homicide rate 7.3/100,000, gun homicides 5.1/100,000.
Idaho, 55.3% gun ownership, homicide rate 1.3/100,000, gun homicides .8/100,000.
N.Y., 18% gun ownership, homicide rate 4.4/100,000, gun homicide rate 2.7/100,000.
La., 44.1% gun ownership, homicide rate 9.6/100,000, gun homicide rate 7.7/100,000.
Lots of things could affect the homicide rate. Many here seen to think it's gun ownership, I don't think so. The highest homicide rate in Canada is in Nunavut, 15/100,000. Is it the guns? No I think it's because the place is filled with Nunavut Indians and they think different than White Europeans.
The homicide rates in Central America are in the 30s and 40s/100,000. Do you think it's the gun laws? I don't, these people think differently than I do and you. I don't think it's right but I don't think gun laws are going to fix it.
Don't pass laws for everyone based on your ethnocentric viewpoint of how the world should be and how everyone should think.
Perhaps gun laws are needed for the out of control people in the UK, but they obviously are not for the people in Wyoming.
Edited by petrophysics1, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 2807 by Theodoric, posted 07-18-2014 8:58 AM petrophysics1 has not replied
 Message 2813 by ringo, posted 07-18-2014 12:04 PM petrophysics1 has not replied
 Message 2830 by Minnemooseus, posted 07-19-2014 4:43 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

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