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Author | Topic: Gun Control Again | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member
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I am just no the type to sit by and have someone attack me after a simple question, You might be better of providing your answers to the people who have asked you questions about guns. I am done with you.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 735 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
Ah! We have a plan now! "Change people's hearts and mind set, etc."
Is there any specific sub-plan about how we do that?"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
The pro- gun lobby go through predictable cycles. First they deny correlation. Then they say "correlation is not causation"(or words to that effect). Then they start citing causal relationships which dont stand up to evidential scrutiny (e.g. homicidal people seek out guns thus explaining the correlation between guns and homicides)
Whre are you at in that cycle? Denying evidence or proclaiming evidence of correlation as on your side...?
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mram10 Member (Idle past 3503 days) Posts: 84 Joined: |
The pro- gun lobby go through predictable cycles. First they deny correlation. Then they say "correlation is not causation"(or words to that effect). Then they start citing causal relationships which dont stand up to evidential scrutiny (e.g. homicidal people seek out guns thus explaining the correlation between guns and homicides) Where are you at in that cycle? Denying evidence or proclaiming evidence of correlation as on your side...? For some strange reason, I am on the side of people make choices You could give me a big red nuke button and I would not push it because, wait for it ....... it is wrong! Maybe that is the downfall of less evolved people that were taught to "love God and love your neighbor as yourself" growing up What does pro-gun lobby have to do with me? I don't get a check for supporting gun laws. I have a logical test I follow Is my family safer with my ability to defend them, with or without a gun?Is trusting the police to respond before damage is done to my family logical? Will this gun change me in a way that causes me to be a danger to those around me? Maybe animals that choose not to control their urges have a problem with weapons, but I don't. Maybe I am just more highly evolved
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mram10 Member (Idle past 3503 days) Posts: 84 Joined: |
You might be better of providing your answers to the people who have asked you questions about guns. I am done with you. Thank you
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Percy Member Posts: 22393 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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mram10 writes: Is my family safer with my ability to defend them, with or without a gun? Is there something special about your ability to defend your family? If not, if you're about average, and if your family lives in an average type area rather than some urban war zone, then your family is safer without a gun in the house. And if you *are* exceptional in your ability to defend your family then you're not representative and shouldn't be using yourself as an example.
Will this gun change me in a way that causes me to be a danger to those around me? The danger comes not from just the owner of the gun but from everyone. That includes the gun's owner, his family, guests, visitors, and birthday party and beer bash attendees. It includes times when everyone's sober and other times when some have been drinking. It includes times when everyone's happy and other times when some are depressed. Or angry. Or mentally disturbed. Let's say you're fine now, but next year some time you begin having dark thoughts of murder. You discount them, suppress them, try to ignore them, determinedly go on with your life, but the thoughts get more heinous and frequent. As you descend more and more deeply into schizophrenia, will you have the forethought and presence of mind to get rid of the gun? Or let's say this happens to one of your children. Will you recognize the signs in time and get rid of the gun? Or let's say a relative is descending into madness and attends a family get together. Will someone have noticed this, know you have a gun in the house, and warn you to hide it? Or an argument breaks out between distant relatives at a family barbeque? Will one of them become so angry that he looks for and finds your gun? Or will a child find your gun and accidentally discharge it? Will someone in your household become so depressed that they use the gun to commit suicide? --Percy
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Oh my God. Now you seem to be suggesting that the right to guns is equivalent to the right for people to have the choice of possessing the "big red nuke button". Fuck!!
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1284 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
Ok.. you are utterly twisting and misrepresenting everything i say,
I barely have time to look at this every few days, and have no interest in going round and round while you are clearly reading something other that what is written.If you truely believe that I am condoning the crime at the expense of the victim you have some very basic reading comprehension issues. I'll leave you to it.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1284 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined:
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You don't need a court to tell you that someone who has broken into your house has committed a crime.
if someone has broken into a house then we know, beyond suspicion, that they have committed a crime.
really? are you sure?A 5 minute google search gives us this: Connecticut man kills suspected burglar, then learns it's his teenage sonhttp://usnews.nbcnews.com/...then-learns-its-his-teenage-son Father Shoots And Kills 14-Year-Old Daughter, Saying He Mistook Her For Burglarhttp://thinkprogress.org/...-daughter-saying-mistook-burglar Stepdad who shot teen girl is decorated Fort Carson officerhttp://gazette.com/...ed-fort-carson-officer/article/1511573 Wandering man with Alzheimer’s disease mistaken for a burglar, shot and killed Wandering man with Alzheimer’s disease mistaken for a burglar, shot and killed — New York Daily News Polk mom mistakes daughter for boyfriend, shoots and kills herPolice: Polk mom mistakes daughter for boyfriend, shoots and kills her Woman shot dead after traffic accident as she tries to get helpDetroit Free Press High school track star shot and killed after jumping out of closet in prank gone horribly wrong: fatherHigh school track star shot and killed after jumping out of closet in prank gone horribly wrong: father — New York Daily News Orlando boy shoots, kills younger brother, 12, after mistaking him for a home invaderOrlando boy shoots, kills younger brother, 12, after mistaking him for a home invader — New York Daily News teen had been drinking, was mistakenly shot he when entered wrong househttp://www.washingtonpost.com/...cfd-36d6c9b5d7ad_story.html Yakima man shoots pregnant wife, mistaking her for an intruderYakima man shoots pregnant wife, mistaking her for an intruder - oregonlive.com Man shoots wife; claims he thought she was intruder LPD: Man shoots wife; claims he thought she was intruder Teen shot after relative mistakes him for an intruder404
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
m writes: I would argue the validity of that study, based on my experience with those that own numerous guns. I would argue that scientific evidence trumps subjective personal testimony. "I know some people....." isn't really an argument at all is it?
m writes: Also, they need to include the demographics of those committing the crimes, as well as numerous other variables. They did:
quote: quote: m writes: Number of inanimate objects (guns) would not make any sense in controlling the human mind. It's got nothing to do with "controlling the human mind and everything to do with making it all too easy for people to act upon their worst impulses and most dangerous predilictions.
m writes: I'm sure Harvard is not biased. It was a meta study of the academic literature on the subject.
m writes: Should I bring NRA studies to the table also? If you want to. I am sure that there are plenty here who will explain to you any methodological flaws that these research papers might have. But being a scientist yourself (apparently) you could presumably highlight any such flaws yourself.....?
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 285 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
I would argue the validity of that study, based on my experience with those that own numerous guns. Spoken like a True Scientist.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Ok.. you are utterly twisting and misrepresenting everything i say, I barely have time to look at this every few days, and have no interest in going round and round while you are clearly reading something other that what is written. If you truely believe that I am condoning the crime at the expense of the victim you have some very basic reading comprehension issues. I'll leave you to it. Its all your fault. If you don't have time to write coherantly and mean what you say and say what you mean, then maybe you should wait until you do have the time to do so. I mean, look how long it took you to realize your error and admit that your original argument about the capacity to be lethal really didn't have anything to do with the "capacity". I can't help it that you write things that you don't mean. If you don't mean capacity, then don't write about capacity. I can only go by what I see written from you. And you also aren't considering the logical extensions of your arguments. If you're not condoning the crime at the expense of the victim, then you could easily answer my question: How do you grant a criminal the right to due process after breaking into a home without removing the right of the victim to defend themself against the intrusion? Further, some decent reading comprehension on your side would help as well. Your response to me saying that if someone broke into a home then we know they've committed a crime is to list a bunch of questionable home shootings. But none of them address what I've said: If you've broken into someone's home, then you have committed a crime. It doesn't matter if it was a joke, or if you thought you were at a different place, or you're retarded, breaking and entering is a crime regardless. Now, that doesn't mean its right to start shooting, but I haven't said that either. It does get cloudier when you have teenagers who are "breaking", or sneaking, into the houses that they live in. I'm not a lawyer but I'd guess that they either are not "breaking in" or if they actually are, then it is still illegal. But I don't know. So for each of the "examples" that you listed, you need to address one question to each one of them to get to my point: Did they break into the house or not? You do know what "breaking and entering" is, right?
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1284 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined:
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I've been making a very straight forward point, again and again and you've been dancing around it right from the get go, when percy responded to your blatant misreading of my post.
But none of them address what I've said: If you've broken into someone's home, then you have committed a crime
I have shown that your average Joe/Joanne with a gun in their hand is not a reliable judge of whether a crime has actually been committed or not and they are not a reliable judge as to whether lethal force is required or not. The corpses back this up. I've attempted to make this point again and again and you've willfully misrepresented me and avoided responding to the point I was making. legal or illegal, intentional or unintentional, these people have died, and had there not been a gun available most if not all of them would not have been killed.with out a gun there would have been time to identify themselves and the error/mistake would have been apparent. But because guns were readily available, these people are now dead. You keep on dancing.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I've been making a very straight forward point, again and again and you've been dancing around it right from the get go What is your point?
I have shown that your average Joe/Joanne with a gun in their hand is not a reliable judge of whether a crime has actually been committed or not and they are not a reliable judge as to whether lethal force is required or not. The corpses back this up. I've attempted to make this point again and again and you've willfully misrepresented me and avoided responding to the point I was making. legal or illegal, intentional or unintentional, these people have died, and had there not been a gun available most if not all of them would not have been killed.with out a gun there would have been time to identify themselves and the error/mistake would have been apparent. But because guns were readily available, these people are now dead. Is that all you are saying?
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1284 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined:
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What is your point?
Seriously?I've dumbed this down just about as far as it can go, If you're not getting my point by now you never will. Carry on.
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