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Author Topic:   Correlation between Anti-Gun v Anti Death Penalty Views
mram10
Member (Idle past 3590 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 08-07-2012


Message 1 of 113 (733707)
07-20-2014 12:33 PM


It seems (simple observation) that the majority of people that are against the Death Penalty are also Anti-Gun.
Logically, wouldn't we want to rid society of those committing major crimes, rather than blame the items used?
Are the guns to blame, thus the need to dispose of them, while giving leave to the criminals because of the effect weapon have on them?
Edited by mram10, : No reason given.
Edited by mram10, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 8 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-20-2014 6:05 PM mram10 has not replied
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 Message 14 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-22-2014 10:25 AM mram10 has not replied
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Admin
Director
Posts: 13082
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 2 of 113 (733708)
07-20-2014 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mram10
07-20-2014 12:33 PM


Hi Mram10,
Addressing this first:
mram10 writes:
Please stay on topic and avoid name calling
EvC Forum has a set of Forum Guidelines enforced by moderators where your rules are already covered. If you observe any thread that could benefit from some moderator attention then please a post a note to the Report Discussion Problems Here 4.0 thread.
Do those with the above views have criminal ties to themselves or family?
Do those with the above views have criminal tendencies, thus a defense mechanism arises?
I'd really prefer not to promote a thread that begins by implying that those or their families who hold views different from you have criminal ties or tendencies, but I will if this is what you really want to say. But one of your frequent accusations against other people in the threads I've observed you participating in so far is that they are biased, so I thought maybe you'd like the opportunity to avoid leaving yourself open to charges of bias.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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mram10
Member (Idle past 3590 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 08-07-2012


Message 3 of 113 (733709)
07-20-2014 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
07-20-2014 1:42 PM


Agreed. Corrected

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Admin
Director
Posts: 13082
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 4 of 113 (733711)
07-20-2014 2:49 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Correlation between Anti-Gun v Anti Death Penalty Views thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 499 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 5 of 113 (733712)
07-20-2014 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mram10
07-20-2014 12:33 PM


mram10 writes:
Logically, wouldn't we want to rid society of those committing major crimes, rather than blame the items used?
I'm really not concerned about the items used to commit crimes. I'm against the idea of removing people from society by killing them.

This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 6 of 113 (733713)
07-20-2014 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mram10
07-20-2014 12:33 PM


It's not necessary to kill people to stop them shooting people. That's what jails are for.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22622
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 7 of 113 (733723)
07-20-2014 4:54 PM


The Death Penalty as a Deterrent
The threat of execution at some future date is unlikely to enter the minds of those acting under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol, those who are in the grip of fear or rage, those who are panicking while committing another crime (such as a robbery), or those who suffer from mental illness or mental retardation and do not fully understand the gravity of their crime.
Above is from the Amnesty International website.
--Percy

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 371 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 8 of 113 (733730)
07-20-2014 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mram10
07-20-2014 12:33 PM


Logically, wouldn't we want to rid society of those committing major crimes, rather than blame the items used?
Are the guns to blame, thus the need to dispose of them, while giving leave to the criminals because of the effect weapon have on them?
A straw man and a false dichotomy! You must be very proud.

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 9 of 113 (733733)
07-20-2014 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Dr Adequate
07-20-2014 6:05 PM


A straw man and a false dichotomy! You must be very proud.
Yes, and that's what's left after Percy convinced him to clean up the OP.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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vimesey
Member (Idle past 160 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 10 of 113 (733735)
07-20-2014 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mram10
07-20-2014 12:33 PM


Logically, wouldn't we want to rid society of those committing major crimes, rather than blame the items used?
There is no binary choice between a desire to remove criminals from society, and blaming guns for anything. You are setting up a false dichotomy.
I am more than happy to remove criminals from society through imprisonment, as Tangle has pointed out. I believe it's part of a humane and enlightened society to do so, in preference to killing criminals, and has the happy bonus that if the system fucks up and convicts an innocent guy, we can have a go at fixing things.
I am equally happy to be of the view that widespread gun ownership in a society results in more violent deaths than it prevents, so I believe that to be a poor choice too, along with capital punishment.
The two views are not incompatible, as you suggest. Logic, your opening word, is not at home in that sentence.
Are the guns to blame, thus the need to dispose of them, while giving leave to the criminals because of the effect weapon have on them?
Not sure where you're going with this one, but guns are never to blame for any crime - the criminal is, or else there is an abdication of responsibility. Widespread gun ownership, however, makes the opportunities for violent killing much greater, and the incidence of accidental deaths greater too, for a corresponding benefit to society which is much smaller. So I would rather live in a society which does not allow their widespread ownership - on balance, my children and I are safer.
As for the effect weapons have on criminals, are you suggesting that widespread gun ownership prevents violent crime because the criminals are too scared to commit it ? If so, how's that working for you in America ?
It seems (simple observation) that the majority of people that are against the Death Penalty are also Anti-Gun.
I would agree with your sentiment - my own opposition to the death penalty and to widespread gun ownership both have a great deal to do with my views on the sanctity of life. However, (a) you will find a lot of people who oppose one and not the other; and (b) I wouldn't capitalise "Death Penalty" and "Anti-Gun" - that's very simplistic, and the debate is much more nuanced.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 11 of 113 (733770)
07-21-2014 5:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by mram10
07-20-2014 12:33 PM


mram10 writes:
Are the guns to blame, thus the need to dispose of them...
Actually, I'm in favour of removing both the guns and the people who use them to commit violent gun crimes from society. Removing the guns first would solve a lot of problems; the first one being that criminals won't be able to commit gun crimes without guns.
I comment as someone who has been a victim of car hi-jackings twice. By just stopping at red traffic lights.
Without guns those guys never would have been able to steal my cars from me. They never would have been able to put those barrels against my face.
But, as I don't live in your country, I can't comment on your domestic debates.

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 821 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(4)
Message 12 of 113 (733787)
07-21-2014 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by mram10
07-20-2014 12:33 PM


Logically, wouldn't we want to rid society of those committing major crimes...
But alas, Dick Cheney as well as the wolves of Wall Street still roam free....
Yes, I oppose the death penalty in general, and yes, there are far too many handguns in the hands of people that scare the crap out of me. Legal owners as well as illegal. The safety officer for the company I work for is a licensed concealed-carrier of pistols - he shot a hole in the door of his company vehicle while showing another employee, while at work, his new piece of ordnance. And missed the guy's knee by a foot or so. The safety man had told me a few weeks before about how he was a Responsible Gun Owner......

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 13 of 113 (733811)
07-21-2014 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mram10
07-20-2014 12:33 PM


Logically, wouldn't we want to rid society of those committing major crimes, rather than blame the items used?
I would rather rehabilitate and train criminals so that they have a marketable skill they can use in the job market. I would rather guns be in the hands of law enforcement than in the hands of criminals.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 113 (733849)
07-22-2014 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by mram10
07-20-2014 12:33 PM


It seems (simple observation) that the majority of people that are against the Death Penalty are also Anti-Gun.
It makes sense to me that if you were against one then you'd be against the other. So what?
I don't think I'm Anti-Gun, but I'm definately not for the death penaly. What does "Anti-Gun" actually mean?
And why would anyone be for the death penalty?
Logically, wouldn't we want to rid society of those committing major crimes, rather than blame the items used?
Lock them up, sure. But kill them? Why?
Are the guns to blame, thus the need to dispose of them, while giving leave to the criminals because of the effect weapon have on them?
I wish there were less guns in the hands of criminals. Its easier to commit more crimes when you have a gun.
I don't think blanket laws that affect everybody are the way to go about that though. But I certainly don't think killing the criminals is the answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mram10, posted 07-20-2014 12:33 PM mram10 has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 15 of 113 (733850)
07-22-2014 10:29 AM


Pro gun and against the death penalty
I strongly oppose the death penalty on the very simple grounds that it is irreversible.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
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