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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 2836 of 5179 (733693)
07-20-2014 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 2835 by mram10
07-20-2014 12:09 PM


I am just no the type to sit by and have someone attack me after a simple question,
You might be better of providing your answers to the people who have asked you questions about guns. I am done with you.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2835 by mram10, posted 07-20-2014 12:09 PM mram10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2840 by mram10, posted 07-20-2014 2:31 PM NoNukes has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 816 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 2837 of 5179 (733696)
07-20-2014 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2835 by mram10
07-20-2014 12:09 PM


Ah! We have a plan now! "Change people's hearts and mind set, etc."
Is there any specific sub-plan about how we do that?

"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2835 by mram10, posted 07-20-2014 12:09 PM mram10 has seen this message but not replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 147 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 2838 of 5179 (733699)
07-20-2014 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 2823 by mram10
07-19-2014 12:30 PM


Re: It doesn't add up
The pro- gun lobby go through predictable cycles. First they deny correlation. Then they say "correlation is not causation"(or words to that effect). Then they start citing causal relationships which dont stand up to evidential scrutiny (e.g. homicidal people seek out guns thus explaining the correlation between guns and homicides)
Whre are you at in that cycle? Denying evidence or proclaiming evidence of correlation as on your side...?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2823 by mram10, posted 07-19-2014 12:30 PM mram10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2839 by mram10, posted 07-20-2014 2:30 PM Straggler has replied

mram10
Member (Idle past 3584 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 08-07-2012


Message 2839 of 5179 (733705)
07-20-2014 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 2838 by Straggler
07-20-2014 1:33 PM


Re: It doesn't add up
The pro- gun lobby go through predictable cycles. First they deny correlation. Then they say "correlation is not causation"(or words to that effect). Then they start citing causal relationships which dont stand up to evidential scrutiny (e.g. homicidal people seek out guns thus explaining the correlation between guns and homicides)
Where are you at in that cycle? Denying evidence or proclaiming evidence of correlation as on your side...?
For some strange reason, I am on the side of people make choices You could give me a big red nuke button and I would not push it because, wait for it ....... it is wrong! Maybe that is the downfall of less evolved people that were taught to "love God and love your neighbor as yourself" growing up
What does pro-gun lobby have to do with me? I don't get a check for supporting gun laws. I have a logical test I follow
Is my family safer with my ability to defend them, with or without a gun?
Is trusting the police to respond before damage is done to my family logical?
Will this gun change me in a way that causes me to be a danger to those around me?
Maybe animals that choose not to control their urges have a problem with weapons, but I don't. Maybe I am just more highly evolved

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2838 by Straggler, posted 07-20-2014 1:33 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2841 by Percy, posted 07-20-2014 3:22 PM mram10 has not replied
 Message 2842 by Straggler, posted 07-20-2014 3:32 PM mram10 has not replied

mram10
Member (Idle past 3584 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 08-07-2012


Message 2840 of 5179 (733706)
07-20-2014 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 2836 by NoNukes
07-20-2014 12:47 PM


You might be better of providing your answers to the people who have asked you questions about guns. I am done with you.
Thank you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2836 by NoNukes, posted 07-20-2014 12:47 PM NoNukes has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22607
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 2841 of 5179 (733715)
07-20-2014 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 2839 by mram10
07-20-2014 2:30 PM


Re: It doesn't add up
mram10 writes:
Is my family safer with my ability to defend them, with or without a gun?
Is there something special about your ability to defend your family? If not, if you're about average, and if your family lives in an average type area rather than some urban war zone, then your family is safer without a gun in the house.
And if you *are* exceptional in your ability to defend your family then you're not representative and shouldn't be using yourself as an example.
Will this gun change me in a way that causes me to be a danger to those around me?
The danger comes not from just the owner of the gun but from everyone. That includes the gun's owner, his family, guests, visitors, and birthday party and beer bash attendees. It includes times when everyone's sober and other times when some have been drinking. It includes times when everyone's happy and other times when some are depressed. Or angry. Or mentally disturbed.
Let's say you're fine now, but next year some time you begin having dark thoughts of murder. You discount them, suppress them, try to ignore them, determinedly go on with your life, but the thoughts get more heinous and frequent. As you descend more and more deeply into schizophrenia, will you have the forethought and presence of mind to get rid of the gun?
Or let's say this happens to one of your children. Will you recognize the signs in time and get rid of the gun?
Or let's say a relative is descending into madness and attends a family get together. Will someone have noticed this, know you have a gun in the house, and warn you to hide it?
Or an argument breaks out between distant relatives at a family barbeque? Will one of them become so angry that he looks for and finds your gun?
Or will a child find your gun and accidentally discharge it?
Will someone in your household become so depressed that they use the gun to commit suicide?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2839 by mram10, posted 07-20-2014 2:30 PM mram10 has not replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 147 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 2842 of 5179 (733716)
07-20-2014 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 2839 by mram10
07-20-2014 2:30 PM


Re: It doesn't add up
Oh my God. Now you seem to be suggesting that the right to guns is equivalent to the right for people to have the choice of possessing the "big red nuke button". Fuck!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2839 by mram10, posted 07-20-2014 2:30 PM mram10 has not replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1365 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 2843 of 5179 (733760)
07-21-2014 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 2809 by New Cat's Eye
07-18-2014 10:19 AM


Ok.. you are utterly twisting and misrepresenting everything i say,
I barely have time to look at this every few days, and have no interest in going round and round while you are clearly reading something other that what is written.
If you truely believe that I am
condoning the crime at the expense of the victim
you have some very basic reading comprehension issues.
I'll leave you to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2809 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-18-2014 10:19 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2847 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-22-2014 10:12 AM Heathen has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1365 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


(2)
Message 2844 of 5179 (733761)
07-21-2014 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 2809 by New Cat's Eye
07-18-2014 10:19 AM


You don't need a court to tell you that someone who has broken into your house has committed a crime.
if someone has broken into a house then we know, beyond suspicion, that they have committed a crime.
really? are you sure?
A 5 minute google search gives us this:
Connecticut man kills suspected burglar, then learns it's his teenage son
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/...then-learns-its-his-teenage-son
Father Shoots And Kills 14-Year-Old Daughter, Saying He Mistook Her For Burglar
http://thinkprogress.org/...-daughter-saying-mistook-burglar
Stepdad who shot teen girl is decorated Fort Carson officer
http://gazette.com/...ed-fort-carson-officer/article/1511573
Wandering man with Alzheimer’s disease mistaken for a burglar, shot and killed
Wandering man with Alzheimer’s disease mistaken for a burglar, shot and killed — New York Daily News
Polk mom mistakes daughter for boyfriend, shoots and kills her
Police: Polk mom mistakes daughter for boyfriend, shoots and kills her
Woman shot dead after traffic accident as she tries to get help
Detroit Free Press
High school track star shot and killed after jumping out of closet in prank gone horribly wrong: father
High school track star shot and killed after jumping out of closet in prank gone horribly wrong: father — New York Daily News
Orlando boy shoots, kills younger brother, 12, after mistaking him for a home invader
Orlando boy shoots, kills younger brother, 12, after mistaking him for a home invader — New York Daily News
teen had been drinking, was mistakenly shot he when entered wrong house
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...cfd-36d6c9b5d7ad_story.html
Yakima man shoots pregnant wife, mistaking her for an intruder
Yakima man shoots pregnant wife, mistaking her for an intruder - oregonlive.com
Man shoots wife; claims he thought she was intruder
LPD: Man shoots wife; claims he thought she was intruder
Teen shot after relative mistakes him for an intruder
404

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2809 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-18-2014 10:19 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 147 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 2845 of 5179 (733798)
07-21-2014 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 2823 by mram10
07-19-2014 12:30 PM


Re: It doesn't add up
m writes:
I would argue the validity of that study, based on my experience with those that own numerous guns.
I would argue that scientific evidence trumps subjective personal testimony. "I know some people....." isn't really an argument at all is it?
m writes:
Also, they need to include the demographics of those committing the crimes, as well as numerous other variables.
They did:
quote:
Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.
quote:
After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.
m writes:
Number of inanimate objects (guns) would not make any sense in controlling the human mind.
It's got nothing to do with "controlling the human mind and everything to do with making it all too easy for people to act upon their worst impulses and most dangerous predilictions.
m writes:
I'm sure Harvard is not biased.
It was a meta study of the academic literature on the subject.
m writes:
Should I bring NRA studies to the table also?
If you want to. I am sure that there are plenty here who will explain to you any methodological flaws that these research papers might have. But being a scientist yourself (apparently) you could presumably highlight any such flaws yourself.....?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2823 by mram10, posted 07-19-2014 12:30 PM mram10 has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 2846 of 5179 (733810)
07-21-2014 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 2823 by mram10
07-19-2014 12:30 PM


Re: It doesn't add up
I would argue the validity of that study, based on my experience with those that own numerous guns.
Spoken like a True Scientist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2823 by mram10, posted 07-19-2014 12:30 PM mram10 has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 2847 of 5179 (733847)
07-22-2014 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 2843 by Heathen
07-21-2014 2:36 AM


Ok.. you are utterly twisting and misrepresenting everything i say,
I barely have time to look at this every few days, and have no interest in going round and round while you are clearly reading something other that what is written.
If you truely believe that I am
condoning the crime at the expense of the victim
you have some very basic reading comprehension issues.
I'll leave you to it.
Its all your fault. If you don't have time to write coherantly and mean what you say and say what you mean, then maybe you should wait until you do have the time to do so.
I mean, look how long it took you to realize your error and admit that your original argument about the capacity to be lethal really didn't have anything to do with the "capacity". I can't help it that you write things that you don't mean. If you don't mean capacity, then don't write about capacity. I can only go by what I see written from you.
And you also aren't considering the logical extensions of your arguments. If you're not condoning the crime at the expense of the victim, then you could easily answer my question:
How do you grant a criminal the right to due process after breaking into a home without removing the right of the victim to defend themself against the intrusion?
Further, some decent reading comprehension on your side would help as well. Your response to me saying that if someone broke into a home then we know they've committed a crime is to list a bunch of questionable home shootings.
But none of them address what I've said: If you've broken into someone's home, then you have committed a crime.
It doesn't matter if it was a joke, or if you thought you were at a different place, or you're retarded, breaking and entering is a crime regardless. Now, that doesn't mean its right to start shooting, but I haven't said that either.
It does get cloudier when you have teenagers who are "breaking", or sneaking, into the houses that they live in. I'm not a lawyer but I'd guess that they either are not "breaking in" or if they actually are, then it is still illegal. But I don't know.
So for each of the "examples" that you listed, you need to address one question to each one of them to get to my point:
Did they break into the house or not?
You do know what "breaking and entering" is, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2843 by Heathen, posted 07-21-2014 2:36 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2848 by Heathen, posted 07-22-2014 10:36 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1365 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


(1)
Message 2848 of 5179 (733851)
07-22-2014 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 2847 by New Cat's Eye
07-22-2014 10:12 AM


I've been making a very straight forward point, again and again and you've been dancing around it right from the get go, when percy responded to your blatant misreading of my post.
But none of them address what I've said: If you've broken into someone's home, then you have committed a crime
I have shown that your average Joe/Joanne with a gun in their hand is not a reliable judge of whether a crime has actually been committed or not and they are not a reliable judge as to whether lethal force is required or not. The corpses back this up.
I've attempted to make this point again and again and you've willfully misrepresented me and avoided responding to the point I was making.
legal or illegal, intentional or unintentional, these people have died, and had there not been a gun available most if not all of them would not have been killed.
with out a gun there would have been time to identify themselves and the error/mistake would have been apparent.
But because guns were readily available, these people are now dead.
You keep on dancing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2847 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-22-2014 10:12 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2849 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-22-2014 10:44 AM Heathen has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 2849 of 5179 (733853)
07-22-2014 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 2848 by Heathen
07-22-2014 10:36 AM


I've been making a very straight forward point, again and again and you've been dancing around it right from the get go
What is your point?
I have shown that your average Joe/Joanne with a gun in their hand is not a reliable judge of whether a crime has actually been committed or not and they are not a reliable judge as to whether lethal force is required or not. The corpses back this up.
I've attempted to make this point again and again and you've willfully misrepresented me and avoided responding to the point I was making.
legal or illegal, intentional or unintentional, these people have died, and had there not been a gun available most if not all of them would not have been killed.
with out a gun there would have been time to identify themselves and the error/mistake would have been apparent.
But because guns were readily available, these people are now dead.
Is that all you are saying?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2848 by Heathen, posted 07-22-2014 10:36 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2850 by Heathen, posted 07-23-2014 10:28 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1365 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


(1)
Message 2850 of 5179 (733958)
07-23-2014 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 2849 by New Cat's Eye
07-22-2014 10:44 AM


What is your point?
Seriously?
I've dumbed this down just about as far as it can go, If you're not getting my point by now you never will.
Carry on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2849 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-22-2014 10:44 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2851 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-23-2014 12:42 PM Heathen has replied

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