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Author | Topic: Should Christians go vegetarian? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
heathen writes:
Nonsense. The Bible suggests no such thing.
in the context of the biblical creation myth, pre fall, there was no death. therefore no meat was eaten,
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I'm not trying to tell you you should be veggie, I don't give a shit what YOU eat. I'm questioning the biblical literalists about the bible's teachings. First off, you asked about "Christians" and not "biblical literalists", but anyways, my question was from a Christain standpoint: Why did God give us canines if he didn't want us eating meat?
But the idea that we are born carnivores is nonsense. We and our ancestors clearly are/were omnivores.
in the context of the biblical creation myth, pre fall, there was no death. therefore no meat was eaten, As a Christian, I would say that the creation myth never actually happened, so your argument fails on that part.
this is all post-"fall" though, The original, "perfect" creation had no meat, (at least the meat was still attached to the bones and walking around) isn't that what Christians should be aspiring to? a pre-fall state of perfection? From a Biblical Literist perspective, I would ask why you think that we should aspire for the pre-fallen state?
-Not only do most mammals (with the exception of rodents, rabbits, and pikas), including herbivores, have canine teeth; the largest canine teeth of any land mammal belong to a true herbivore: the hippopotamus. If I was a hippo asking my question, then the answer would be: You have those large canines for fighting. And you gave the reasons for the other herbavore species having their canines. Now, from an evolutionary perspective: Why do humans have the canines that they do?
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:IMO, the idea that there was no death of anything prior to Adam and Eve's (A&E) disobedience is being read into the story not pulled from the story. I disagree that a vegetarian diet was God's original plan for humans or animals. In Genesis 1:29, God makes a gift of the plants and seeds for food. It doesn't support that meat couldn't be or wasn't eaten. Notice it doesn't include sea creatures and the sea does contain carnivores. In the A&E story, God tells Adam he may freely eat fruit from every tree except for the tree of knowledge of good and evil (TKGE). According to the story, Adam was put in the garden to maintain it. Now he had permission to eat from it, except for one tree. Also in this story God brings the animals to Adam to name. I haven't found anything in the Bible that tells of renaming the animals after A&E's disobedience. The names for the carnivores lead me to believe that Adam saw them eat. Here are some of the carnivore names. (No Death Before the Fall - A Young Earth Problem) Lion: Strong's #H738 - from H717 "in the sense of violence"11 Eagle: Strong's #H5404 - from an unused root meaning "to lacerate"15 Vulture: Strong's #H653820 - from H6536,21 "to break in pieces, tear" We also have the issue that if Adam had not seen death, he would not have understood God's warning concerning the TKGE. After A&E's disobedience; ground cursed, painful toil, eat the grain of the field, and by the sweat of your brow you will eat bread until you return to the ground. (Genesis 3:17-19) Then God made them clothes from skin. (Genesis 3:21) If no animals died before A&E disobeyed, then God made the first killing for skins. No mention yet that man can eat meat, if they couldn't before. Now we have the Cain and Abel (C&E) story. Abel raised sheep and Cain cultivated the ground. Abel made an offering from his flock. An offering of an animal usually means death to the animal. Once Cain kills Abel God bans Cain from the ground. The ground will no longer yield its best for Cain. (Genesis 4:12) The idea that carnivores didn't eat meat before A&E's disobedience leaves us with the question of, when did God recreate the carnivores so that they could eat meat? We have nothing in the stories that present the idea that God revamped the carnivores to eat differently than when he first created them. That's why these stories should be understood as "just so" type stories to explain why things were the way they were, instead being read as historical fact. After the flood story we see it written that God gave humans everything to eat. (Genesis 9:3) As we can see the humans were already eating meat. At the very least they were already sacrificing animals, and so causing death to animals. If they weren't eating the meat, then they were being wasteful. IMO, that is worse than killing to eat. In Exodus, God required lamb blood to protect the Hebrews. During the Exodus, God brought quail to the camp as well as bread. (Exodus 16:13) If God was truly against humans eating meat, he wouldn't have supplied it. Christians follow the teachings and example of Jesus Christ. Jesus ate fish and lamb. I see no grand plan of God concerning eating meat or not. IMO, eating vegetarian may have been a means for the early Jews to avoid accidentally eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols. I see no teachings that would suggest Christians should be vegetarians in following the teachings of Jesus. His teachings were more about personal behavior towards others, not what was eaten. Humans are a very diverse group. Our ancestors evolved all over the planet to survive on the food in their area. Some will have more access to plants due to weather than others. Others will need to rely on meat more than plants. We aren't a one size fits all group.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
CS writes: Now, from an evolutionary perspective: Why do humans have the canines that they do? The same ancestral reasons that gorillas do?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
The same ancestral reasons that gorillas do? What, because our ancestors ate meat?
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 285 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
this is all post-"fall" though, The original, "perfect" creation had no meat, (at least the meat was still attached to the bones and walking around) isn't that what Christians should be aspiring to? a pre-fall state of perfection? Wouldn't that also mean that they should go about naked all the time? Now there are some Christians I wouldn't mind seeing naked, but I don't think it should be a general rule. In any case, the Fall didn't affect God. And God apparently loves meat and can't get enough of it. I guess that's why he made animals out of it instead of using tofu. I have no information on whether he has canine teeth.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I mean more along the terms of organic.
I mean kosher in the slang sense of being pure and good. Treated right.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Right. But, like gorillas, the fact that our ancestors did doesnt mean we need to now. Having canines (esp the rather pathetic ones we have) is an evolutionary hangover rather than a justification in itself.
I eat meat. I am just not convinced that "I have canines" is a particularly relevant argument. Gorillas have canines too and dont eat meat.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1284 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
As a Christian, I would say that the creation myth never actually happened, so your argument fails on that part
*sigh*
From a Biblical Literist perspective, I would ask why you think that we should aspire for the pre-fallen state?
because the pre fall world was supposedly god's perfect creation. god's initial intention before us pesky humans (or at least Adam and Eve) ruined it all.
Now, from an evolutionary perspective: Why do humans have the canines that they do?
What those examples show is that having canines does not imply carniverous tendancies, so your implication earlier that we have canines because we evolved to be meat eaters is flawed. MY initial post has nothing to do with evolution, I was enquiring about the christian (yes, i could have been more specific: biblical literalist) view.or are you just intent on dragging this off topic to engage in a pointless argument?
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1284 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
Wouldn't that also mean that they should go about naked all the time?
Yes, indeed.that's the thrust of the initial post, shouldn't Xians strive for a pre fall world, gods initial perfect, unspoilt creation.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1284 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
ok.
then i guess this topic doesn't interest you. I suppose it would have been aimed at folk who DO think the bible suggests that.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
From a Biblical Literist perspective, I would ask why you think that we should aspire for the pre-fallen state?
because the pre fall world was supposedly god's perfect creation. god's initial intention before us pesky humans (or at least Adam and Eve) ruined it all. Where in the Biblical Literalist narrative does it ever say that we should go backwards like that? Its all about moving forward to the New Kingdom in the future.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I'm not making the argument that because we have canines then we must be meat eaters. I'm asking the question that if our canines aren't there because of eating meat, then why are they there?
Its a straight forward question. Like if it was this way: if hippos don't eat meat, then why do they have such big canines? Then the answer would be that hippos have the canines they do because they use them for fighting. Same with gorillas. We don't use ours for fighting. So why did we evolve the canines that we did? Was diet the biggest contributing factor? Don't we have a kind of "all around" set of teeth? Didn't we evolve from and continue to be omnivores? If our canines aren't for eating meat, then what are they for? Nothing? Just a by-product? Or do they serve a purpose?
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes:
Evolution doesn't do things for a reason. Behaviour comes from evolution. Meat-eating has survival benefits and we can eat meat because we have the teeth for it. How the teeth happened to get that way is another question.
So why did we evolve the canines that we did?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Evolution doesn't do things for a reason. No, but things evolve because of reasons. The giraffe didn't get its long neck from a lottery.
How the teeth happened to get that way is another question. That's the question I'm asking... Why are they the way they are? And further, how much does eating meat have to do with it?
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