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Author Topic:   Should Christians go vegetarian?
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 16 of 40 (733961)
07-23-2014 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Heathen
07-23-2014 5:55 AM


heathen writes:
in the context of the biblical creation myth, pre fall, there was no death. therefore no meat was eaten,
Nonsense. The Bible suggests no such thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Heathen, posted 07-23-2014 5:55 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 40 (733966)
07-23-2014 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Heathen
07-23-2014 3:25 AM


I'm not trying to tell you you should be veggie, I don't give a shit what YOU eat.
I'm questioning the biblical literalists about the bible's teachings.
First off, you asked about "Christians" and not "biblical literalists", but anyways, my question was from a Christain standpoint: Why did God give us canines if he didn't want us eating meat?
But the idea that we are born carnivores is nonsense.
We and our ancestors clearly are/were omnivores.
in the context of the biblical creation myth, pre fall, there was no death. therefore no meat was eaten,
As a Christian, I would say that the creation myth never actually happened, so your argument fails on that part.
this is all post-"fall" though,
The original, "perfect" creation had no meat, (at least the meat was still attached to the bones and walking around)
isn't that what Christians should be aspiring to? a pre-fall state of perfection?
From a Biblical Literist perspective, I would ask why you think that we should aspire for the pre-fallen state?
-Not only do most mammals (with the exception of rodents, rabbits, and pikas), including herbivores, have canine teeth; the largest canine teeth of any land mammal belong to a true herbivore: the hippopotamus.
If I was a hippo asking my question, then the answer would be: You have those large canines for fighting.
And you gave the reasons for the other herbavore species having their canines.
Now, from an evolutionary perspective: Why do humans have the canines that they do?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Heathen, posted 07-23-2014 3:25 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Straggler, posted 07-23-2014 2:22 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 24 by Heathen, posted 07-24-2014 1:59 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(2)
Message 18 of 40 (733969)
07-23-2014 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Heathen
07-22-2014 10:12 AM


No Vegetarian Decree
quote:
I would agree with the point made that as per genesis, the original creation was a vegetarian society (as there was no death).
IMO, the idea that there was no death of anything prior to Adam and Eve's (A&E) disobedience is being read into the story not pulled from the story. I disagree that a vegetarian diet was God's original plan for humans or animals.
In Genesis 1:29, God makes a gift of the plants and seeds for food. It doesn't support that meat couldn't be or wasn't eaten. Notice it doesn't include sea creatures and the sea does contain carnivores.
In the A&E story, God tells Adam he may freely eat fruit from every tree except for the tree of knowledge of good and evil (TKGE). According to the story, Adam was put in the garden to maintain it. Now he had permission to eat from it, except for one tree. Also in this story God brings the animals to Adam to name. I haven't found anything in the Bible that tells of renaming the animals after A&E's disobedience. The names for the carnivores lead me to believe that Adam saw them eat.
Here are some of the carnivore names. (No Death Before the Fall - A Young Earth Problem)
Lion: Strong's #H738 - from H717 "in the sense of violence"11
Eagle: Strong's #H5404 - from an unused root meaning "to lacerate"15
Vulture: Strong's #H653820 - from H6536,21 "to break in pieces, tear"
We also have the issue that if Adam had not seen death, he would not have understood God's warning concerning the TKGE.
After A&E's disobedience; ground cursed, painful toil, eat the grain of the field, and by the sweat of your brow you will eat bread until you return to the ground. (Genesis 3:17-19)
Then God made them clothes from skin. (Genesis 3:21) If no animals died before A&E disobeyed, then God made the first killing for skins. No mention yet that man can eat meat, if they couldn't before.
Now we have the Cain and Abel (C&E) story. Abel raised sheep and Cain cultivated the ground. Abel made an offering from his flock. An offering of an animal usually means death to the animal. Once Cain kills Abel God bans Cain from the ground. The ground will no longer yield its best for Cain. (Genesis 4:12)
The idea that carnivores didn't eat meat before A&E's disobedience leaves us with the question of, when did God recreate the carnivores so that they could eat meat? We have nothing in the stories that present the idea that God revamped the carnivores to eat differently than when he first created them. That's why these stories should be understood as "just so" type stories to explain why things were the way they were, instead being read as historical fact.
After the flood story we see it written that God gave humans everything to eat. (Genesis 9:3) As we can see the humans were already eating meat. At the very least they were already sacrificing animals, and so causing death to animals. If they weren't eating the meat, then they were being wasteful. IMO, that is worse than killing to eat.
In Exodus, God required lamb blood to protect the Hebrews. During the Exodus, God brought quail to the camp as well as bread. (Exodus 16:13)
If God was truly against humans eating meat, he wouldn't have supplied it.
Christians follow the teachings and example of Jesus Christ. Jesus ate fish and lamb.
I see no grand plan of God concerning eating meat or not. IMO, eating vegetarian may have been a means for the early Jews to avoid accidentally eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols.
I see no teachings that would suggest Christians should be vegetarians in following the teachings of Jesus. His teachings were more about personal behavior towards others, not what was eaten.
Humans are a very diverse group. Our ancestors evolved all over the planet to survive on the food in their area. Some will have more access to plants due to weather than others. Others will need to rely on meat more than plants. We aren't a one size fits all group.

This message is a reply to:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 19 of 40 (733975)
07-23-2014 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by New Cat's Eye
07-23-2014 12:34 PM


CS writes:
Now, from an evolutionary perspective: Why do humans have the canines that they do?
The same ancestral reasons that gorillas do?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-23-2014 12:34 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-23-2014 3:24 PM Straggler has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 40 (733978)
07-23-2014 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Straggler
07-23-2014 2:22 PM


The same ancestral reasons that gorillas do?
What, because our ancestors ate meat?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Straggler, posted 07-23-2014 2:22 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Straggler, posted 07-23-2014 9:24 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 21 of 40 (733979)
07-23-2014 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Heathen
07-23-2014 10:11 AM


this is all post-"fall" though,
The original, "perfect" creation had no meat, (at least the meat was still attached to the bones and walking around)
isn't that what Christians should be aspiring to? a pre-fall state of perfection?
Wouldn't that also mean that they should go about naked all the time? Now there are some Christians I wouldn't mind seeing naked, but I don't think it should be a general rule.
In any case, the Fall didn't affect God. And God apparently loves meat and can't get enough of it. I guess that's why he made animals out of it instead of using tofu.
I have no information on whether he has canine teeth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Heathen, posted 07-23-2014 10:11 AM Heathen has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 22 of 40 (733983)
07-23-2014 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by NoNukes
07-22-2014 11:39 AM


Re: Respect For Life
I mean more along the terms of organic.
I mean kosher in the slang sense of being pure and good. Treated right.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 23 of 40 (733991)
07-23-2014 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by New Cat's Eye
07-23-2014 3:24 PM


Right. But, like gorillas, the fact that our ancestors did doesnt mean we need to now. Having canines (esp the rather pathetic ones we have) is an evolutionary hangover rather than a justification in itself.
I eat meat. I am just not convinced that "I have canines" is a particularly relevant argument. Gorillas have canines too and dont eat meat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-23-2014 3:24 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2014 10:34 AM Straggler has replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 24 of 40 (733994)
07-24-2014 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by New Cat's Eye
07-23-2014 12:34 PM


As a Christian, I would say that the creation myth never actually happened, so your argument fails on that part
*sigh*
From a Biblical Literist perspective, I would ask why you think that we should aspire for the pre-fallen state?
because the pre fall world was supposedly god's perfect creation. god's initial intention before us pesky humans (or at least Adam and Eve) ruined it all.
Now, from an evolutionary perspective: Why do humans have the canines that they do?
What those examples show is that having canines does not imply carniverous tendancies, so your implication earlier that we have canines because we evolved to be meat eaters is flawed.
MY initial post has nothing to do with evolution, I was enquiring about the christian (yes, i could have been more specific: biblical literalist) view.
or are you just intent on dragging this off topic to engage in a pointless argument?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-23-2014 12:34 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2014 10:28 AM Heathen has not replied
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 07-25-2014 3:22 AM Heathen has replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 25 of 40 (733995)
07-24-2014 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Dr Adequate
07-23-2014 4:13 PM


Wouldn't that also mean that they should go about naked all the time?
Yes, indeed.
that's the thrust of the initial post, shouldn't Xians strive for a pre fall world, gods initial perfect, unspoilt creation.

This message is a reply to:
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 26 of 40 (733997)
07-24-2014 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by ringo
07-23-2014 11:55 AM


ok.
then i guess this topic doesn't interest you.
I suppose it would have been aimed at folk who DO think the bible suggests that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ringo, posted 07-23-2014 11:55 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 40 (734002)
07-24-2014 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Heathen
07-24-2014 1:59 AM


From a Biblical Literist perspective, I would ask why you think that we should aspire for the pre-fallen state?
because the pre fall world was supposedly god's perfect creation. god's initial intention before us pesky humans (or at least Adam and Eve) ruined it all.
Where in the Biblical Literalist narrative does it ever say that we should go backwards like that? Its all about moving forward to the New Kingdom in the future.

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 40 (734003)
07-24-2014 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Straggler
07-23-2014 9:24 PM


I'm not making the argument that because we have canines then we must be meat eaters. I'm asking the question that if our canines aren't there because of eating meat, then why are they there?
Its a straight forward question. Like if it was this way: if hippos don't eat meat, then why do they have such big canines?
Then the answer would be that hippos have the canines they do because they use them for fighting.
Same with gorillas.
We don't use ours for fighting. So why did we evolve the canines that we did?
Was diet the biggest contributing factor? Don't we have a kind of "all around" set of teeth? Didn't we evolve from and continue to be omnivores?
If our canines aren't for eating meat, then what are they for?
Nothing? Just a by-product? Or do they serve a purpose?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Straggler, posted 07-23-2014 9:24 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 07-24-2014 11:49 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 32 by Straggler, posted 07-24-2014 12:36 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 29 of 40 (734008)
07-24-2014 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by New Cat's Eye
07-24-2014 10:34 AM


Catholic Scientist writes:
So why did we evolve the canines that we did?
Evolution doesn't do things for a reason. Behaviour comes from evolution. Meat-eating has survival benefits and we can eat meat because we have the teeth for it. How the teeth happened to get that way is another question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2014 10:34 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2014 12:08 PM ringo has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 40 (734010)
07-24-2014 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
07-24-2014 11:49 AM


Evolution doesn't do things for a reason.
No, but things evolve because of reasons. The giraffe didn't get its long neck from a lottery.
How the teeth happened to get that way is another question.
That's the question I'm asking...
Why are they the way they are?
And further, how much does eating meat have to do with it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 07-24-2014 11:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by ringo, posted 07-24-2014 12:18 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
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