Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 57 (9173 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,585 Year: 4,842/9,624 Month: 190/427 Week: 0/103 Day: 0/8 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   All Knowing God proves problematic
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 996
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(1)
Message 76 of 82 (734021)
07-24-2014 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Phat
07-24-2014 10:47 AM


Re: a simple hand-wave
And if God simply existed to provide for our needs, we would never grow. Besides...God owes us nothing, anyway.
With respect, if god is our creator, then god has a responsibility for his creation. This is a concept that we, as a society, recognize with regards to our children.
If what you are indicating is the case, than the cosmic equivalent of Child Protection Services needs to be invoked and we need to be taken away from him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 07-24-2014 10:47 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 07-25-2014 3:00 AM Diomedes has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 77 of 82 (734065)
07-25-2014 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Diomedes
07-24-2014 1:41 PM


Attitude
Its amazing to observe the attitudes of those who challenge God. Here we have the Creator of all seen and unseen, of which you are unimpressed. You then state the attitude and morality that such a Creator should have and then go so far as to lobby for an even more powerful government to discipline Him when He fails your standards!
The bottom line is that a Creator of all seen and unseen is so far above our limited perception and intelligence that to even think we have the capability to judge Him is at best laughable.
I suppose we can pretend that we can be as gods, however.
God owes us nothing. He gave us the ability to get along (to a degree) without need of Him. We can claim that He should be responsible for His creation, but good luck with an indictment.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Diomedes, posted 07-24-2014 1:41 PM Diomedes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-25-2014 10:22 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 79 by vimesey, posted 07-25-2014 10:37 AM Phat has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 78 of 82 (734082)
07-25-2014 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
07-25-2014 3:00 AM


Re: Attitude
Its amazing to observe the attitudes of those who challenge God.
I find your attitude more amazing: That someone who challenges your opinion about god must be challenging god, himself. And further, that they do it out of some form of spite.
If God is our Father, then we our his children. Father's have duties to their children. They owe them things.
Especially, an all-knowing father. For they completely understand the ramifications of their inaction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 07-25-2014 3:00 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by NoNukes, posted 07-25-2014 2:08 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
vimesey
Member (Idle past 153 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(1)
Message 79 of 82 (734083)
07-25-2014 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
07-25-2014 3:00 AM


Re: Attitude
The bottom line is that a Creator of all seen and unseen is so far above our limited perception and intelligence that to even think we have the capability to judge Him is at best laughable.
I suppose we can pretend that we can be as gods, however.
I don't pretend to be as a god, but equally I don't prostrate myself before some unseen and supposedly superior entity. I don't imagine that I go through life inferior, incapable of understanding, and unable to aspire to more - therein lies the path to repression and subjugation.
Instead I aspire - to be as much as I can - perceiving no self-imposed limits and suffering no feelings of inferiority.
If that's seems arrogant to you, fine - but I would like to think that it's just an expression of what it's like to be gloriously human, ever hopeful, and truly free.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 07-25-2014 3:00 AM Phat has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 82 (734096)
07-25-2014 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by New Cat's Eye
07-25-2014 10:22 AM


Re: Attitude
If God is our Father, then we our his children. Father's have duties to their children. They owe them things.
Parents owe their children a good upbringing. After that what do they owe them just by means of having birthed them?
I don't see any legitimate reason why God would owe you anything simple because he created your distant ancestors and gave them a place to stay. The earth is plenty good enough to take care of your needs. As long as he isn't making efforts to kill you, why would he owe you anything.
I just don't understand the sentiment expressed by you and a couple of others in this thread. I can certainly imagine that God cares and wants to be involved, and I believe that God does care. But I don't see any moral obligation to interfere in our fate.
Treated properly, the earth is reasonably safe, and sufficient for billions of us to live for a nearly unimaginatively long period of time. It looks to me like we are going to screw that up. Why isn't that on us?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-25-2014 10:22 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-25-2014 2:20 PM NoNukes has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 81 of 82 (734097)
07-25-2014 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by NoNukes
07-25-2014 2:08 PM


Re: Attitude
I just don't understand the sentiment expressed by you and a couple of others in this thread. I can certainly imagine that God cares and wants to be involved, and I believe that God does care. But I don't see any moral obligation to interfere in our fate.
Phat said that God owes us nothing. You seem to agree that parents owe their children some things.
I don't think that God owes any individual some sort of interference, but he owes us, as his children, at least some things. Like you said, a good upbringing, at least, fits the bill.
Treated properly, the earth is reasonably safe, and sufficient for billions of us to live for a nearly unimaginatively long period of time. It looks to me like we are going to screw that up. Why isn't that on us?
It is. And, assumingly, God has provided us with that good upbringing. I didn't mean to imply that he owes us more stuff right now. I just think its wrong to say that God owes us nothing. Especially if he's gonna say he's our father.
ABE:
Why isn't that on us?
Given an all-knowing Father, wouldn't they share some of the responsibility in setting up their creation with the foreknowledge that we'd fuck it up?
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : see ABE
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by NoNukes, posted 07-25-2014 2:08 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by NoNukes, posted 07-25-2014 7:39 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 82 (734104)
07-25-2014 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by New Cat's Eye
07-25-2014 2:20 PM


Re: Attitude
I don't think that God owes any individual some sort of interference, but he owes us, as his children, at least some things. Like you said, a good upbringing, at least, fits the bill.
As you say, that is generally provided for.
I didn't mean to imply that he owes us more stuff right now. I just think its wrong to say that God owes us nothing. Especially if he's gonna say he's our father.
I hesitate to deal with the conflicted mess I see in the paragraph above. In my opinion, God does not owe us diddly, or at least would not if he had not promised something else.
Given an all-knowing Father, wouldn't they share some of the responsibility in setting up their creation with the foreknowledge that we'd fuck it up?
Not in my opinion. But then I don't believe in the preordained, God dictates our fate, doctrine anyway. Such a belief is incompatible with free will, and I think we do have free will. By an act of nature or through God's gift, we've been given a heck of a start; a start that could be made into a monster if we all pull together as a team. (My apologies to PF) I don't believe we are too ignorant as a species to make something out of that, but we might screw it up and leave things to the dolphins. But that's on us.
And IMO, God has intervened. I think most Christian believe that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-25-2014 2:20 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024