Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 85 (8950 total)
34 online now:
jar, PaulK, Stile, vimesey, xongsmith (5 members, 29 visitors)
Newest Member: Mikee
Post Volume: Total: 867,010 Year: 22,046/19,786 Month: 609/1,834 Week: 109/500 Day: 6/61 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Growing the Geologic Column
Faith
Member
Posts: 33872
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 196 of 740 (734215)
07-26-2014 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by dwise1
07-26-2014 8:03 PM


Re: Layer / Sill
At this point, it appears that you are still trying to assert that all igneous layers in the Geologic Column are sills. That is clearly and obviously not true.

ABE: Perhaps it depends on what you mean by Gdologic Column. /ABE I believe it to be true and believe I have not yet seen an example where it is not the case, but I consider the Geologic Column to be essentially sedimentary layers. Examples of layered igneous rock are all of stacks where ALL the rock is igneous, such as the Siberian Traps and Black Rock escarpment and I don't count them as the Geologic Column. I have not yet seen a case of igneous rock as a layer among sedimentary layers that is not a sill.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by dwise1, posted 07-26-2014 8:03 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Capt Stormfield, posted 07-26-2014 9:58 PM Faith has responded
 Message 198 by hooah212002, posted 07-26-2014 10:11 PM Faith has responded

  
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 404
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 197 of 740 (734220)
07-26-2014 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Faith
07-26-2014 8:57 PM


Re: Layer / Sill
I have not yet seen a case of igneous rock as a layer among sedimentary layers that is not a sill.

That's because you apparently just redefine any igneous layers as sills. More than one person has explained how to tell the difference. If a volcano spews lava all over the surrounding countryside, and that countryside subsequently becomes covered with sediment - perhaps because it is in a river valley - how would that qualify as a sill?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Faith, posted 07-26-2014 8:57 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Faith, posted 07-26-2014 10:17 PM Capt Stormfield has responded

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 161 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 198 of 740 (734221)
07-26-2014 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Faith
07-26-2014 8:57 PM


Re: Layer / Sill
I have not yet seen a case of igneous rock as a layer among sedimentary layers that is not a sill.

Yes, you have. I posted two rather lengthy and well researched posts including exactly that. Just because you are too ignorant to actually read what people respond to you doesn't mean that the information hasn't been presented to you. Ignoring data doesn't make it disappear.


Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Faith, posted 07-26-2014 8:57 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Faith, posted 07-26-2014 10:20 PM hooah212002 has not yet responded
 Message 201 by Faith, posted 07-26-2014 10:28 PM hooah212002 has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33872
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 199 of 740 (734222)
07-26-2014 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Capt Stormfield
07-26-2014 9:58 PM


Re: Layer / Sill
I'm sure whatever explanations have been given to me I've answered.

I guess I'd ask in turn about your example, How would it qualify as a layer? Perhaps I'm being nitpicky again but I'm picturing a layer of igneous rock BETWEEN layers of sedimentary rock as what I've never seen unless it's a sill, because as usual I'm thinking of a column, or stack, of layers. Does such a thing exist or are all these other kinds of examples all there is?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Capt Stormfield, posted 07-26-2014 9:58 PM Capt Stormfield has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Capt Stormfield, posted 07-26-2014 10:38 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 226 by herebedragons, posted 07-27-2014 4:20 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33872
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 200 of 740 (734223)
07-26-2014 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by hooah212002
07-26-2014 10:11 PM


Re: Layer / Sill
You posted an example of the Black Rock escarpment, which is NOT an example of igneous rock between sedimentary layers. It is ALL igneous as I pointed out to Percy a few posts up. I don't recall your other example, but Percy posted one I think he said was similar, I don't know how similar, about Yellowstone I believe, and that also turned out not to be igneous rock between layers of sedimentary rock. If that one was yours or like yours it was also not an example of what you are claiming.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by hooah212002, posted 07-26-2014 10:11 PM hooah212002 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Coragyps, posted 07-26-2014 10:33 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33872
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 201 of 740 (734225)
07-26-2014 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by hooah212002
07-26-2014 10:11 PM


Re: Layer / Sill
I just went back and reviewed your posts and, hooah, they are NOT of igneous rock between layers of sedimentary rock. There is interbedding, and other kinds of mixtures, but I was asking for a very specific thing and I'm still asking for it: an actual layer, not a sill but a layer laid down in the correct sequence, and a recognizable layer that looks like the sedimentary layers, that lies between those sedimentary layers of the sort we see, say, in the Grand Canyon, or in road cuts and that sort of thing. Your examples are NOT of this. I'm sorry if I haven't been clear but this is what I've had in mind all along and I DID think I was clear.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by hooah212002, posted 07-26-2014 10:11 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by hooah212002, posted 07-27-2014 12:58 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5414
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 202 of 740 (734226)
07-26-2014 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Faith
07-26-2014 10:20 PM


Re: Layer / Sill
Faith: the Carrizozo Malpais in New Mexico is a surface eruption of lava that covers the local sandstone. (Sandstone is sedimentary rock).

It's only about 45 miles long, though, so it may not qualify as geology in your book.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Faith, posted 07-26-2014 10:20 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 404
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 203 of 740 (734227)
07-26-2014 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Faith
07-26-2014 10:17 PM


Re: Layer / Sill
How would it qualify as a layer?

How would it not? What do you think a layer is?

Perhaps I'm being nitpicky again but I'm picturing a layer of igneous rock BETWEEN layers of sedimentary rock as what I've never seen unless it's a sill, because as usual I'm thinking of a column, or stack, of layers.

How is that not what I described? Layers of sedimentary rock in a river valley. Volcano sprays lava 10 feet deep all over the valley. River, swamps, rain forests, etc. subsequently bury lava in sediment. Even more sediment crushes this into sedimentary rock. What do you think that would look like in cross section? How would you differentiate this from a sill? Hint: It has to do with the relative temperature of the layers when they interface.

Does such a thing exist or are all these other kinds of examples all there is?

Untranslatable.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Faith, posted 07-26-2014 10:17 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33872
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 204 of 740 (734230)
07-26-2014 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by dwise1
07-26-2014 5:26 PM


Re: dating by magma sills and dikes
Dwise, I have never claimed to be any kind of expert at all so there's plenty I don't know, but you seem to completely miss what I'm doing here. What I've been doing is pursuing a few extremely limited arguments. They have required me to learn quite a bit that pertains to them, but no way do they require me to master huge amounts of Geology. Mostly I'm interested in what can be seen on diagrams as the basis for my geological arguments. {ABE: I DO feel I've become an "expert" in this area though. /ABE} While it would be nice to have more of a hands-on knowledge of the rocks I'm learning about, that's not possible, and I don't think it's necessary either since my arguments are about things I think are sufficiently shown on the diagrams. I try to use the terminology correctly as I encounter it, but I can't very well correct any misuses unless I'm told where my misuses lie.

Edge does use technical terms without explaining them, and that is simply alienating when one is trying to follow a train of thought. NOBODY ELSE does that here but edge does. He also explained once that he's trying to show me what I don't know. That's pretty domineering and manipulative of him I'd say and it doesn't in any way inspire me to learn anything. As a result I just had to stop reading many of his posts.

ABE: Also, I apparently didn't use the term "sill" as much as I thought I did, but I certainly wasn't lying about it. I found one place where I used "intrusive" and I would guess that's the word I probably most often used.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by dwise1, posted 07-26-2014 5:26 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Capt Stormfield, posted 07-27-2014 12:18 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33872
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 205 of 740 (734232)
07-27-2014 12:14 AM


I'm kind of surprised this thread has been closed for summation. I did think I'd be getting back to some of the posts eventually.

My main comment is that I did find out that the Deccan Traps definitely include sedimentary layers

SOURCE

So that's the first example I've seen where there are genuine layers of both. It's a unique place, though, and really it's less like igneous layers between sedimentary layers than sedimentary layers between igneous layers since the area is a huge volcanic province.

Coragyps: Lava that covers sedimentary rock isn't what I was asking for. There is lava that covers the top strata in the Grand Canyon and the Grand Staircase too, which is where the magma dikes spilled over. They also created sills between layers of the strata on their way up.

The general arguments about what the Geologic Column is were just frustrating. It remains connected in my mind with the Geo Time Scale, time periods assigned to sedimentary layers and especially those that contain fossils.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by JonF, posted 07-27-2014 9:30 AM Faith has responded
 Message 215 by JonF, posted 07-27-2014 9:33 AM Faith has responded

  
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 404
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


(3)
Message 206 of 740 (734233)
07-27-2014 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Faith
07-26-2014 10:42 PM


Re: dating by magma sills and dikes
What I've been doing is pursuing a few extremely limited arguments.... Mostly I'm interested in what can be seen on diagrams as the basis for my geological arguments....my arguments are about things I think are sufficiently shown on the diagrams.

And therein lies the problem. You are using very oversimplified representations of reality to draw conclusions about a subject that is much broader than your understanding.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Faith, posted 07-26-2014 10:42 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Faith, posted 07-27-2014 12:24 AM Capt Stormfield has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33872
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 207 of 740 (734234)
07-27-2014 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by Capt Stormfield
07-27-2014 12:18 AM


Re: dating by magma sills and dikes
Are we out of summation mode now?

Anyway, the points I want to make are ON those diagrams, Capt S., it's the diagrams that contain the arguments I want to make and nothing else would. NOTHING ELSE WOULD. That was my point. I am not drawing conclusions from anything broader than the diagrams.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Capt Stormfield, posted 07-27-2014 12:18 AM Capt Stormfield has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Capt Stormfield, posted 07-27-2014 12:37 AM Faith has responded

  
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 404
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 208 of 740 (734235)
07-27-2014 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Faith
07-27-2014 12:24 AM


Re: dating by magma sills and dikes
Ooooookay. And why is it again that substituting a narrowly focused study of a map for a broad understanding of the actual territory is going to be a fruitful path to the truth?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Faith, posted 07-27-2014 12:24 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 07-27-2014 1:38 AM Capt Stormfield has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33872
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 209 of 740 (734236)
07-27-2014 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Capt Stormfield
07-27-2014 12:37 AM


Re: dating by magma sills and dikes
Well it's about the actual territory of course but there's no other way to show what I want to show about it except by the diagrams. At least for this project on the thread I just proposed, I should clarify. It isn't the only argument I pursue here, but it is a main one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Capt Stormfield, posted 07-27-2014 12:37 AM Capt Stormfield has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19078
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 210 of 740 (734238)
07-27-2014 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Faith
07-26-2014 5:20 PM


Re: Layer / Sill
Faith writes:

Well, OK, but nost sills don't even look like layers. But OK, yes, thanks, you are correct. I keep calling it a sill which I would have thought made the point. So shall I now call it an "intrusive layer" as HBD suggests?

Acceptable terms would be "sill", "intrusion" and "intrusive layer", and there may even be other synonyms. It only gets confusing when you say it's not a layer.

I think both HDB and I are a bit unsatisfied with the geological terminology here. To us it just feels right that the geologic column should be everything in the column of rock beneath your feet, but we have to accept the definitions as they are, and an intrusion is not considered part of the geologic column. I think the reason for this is that the intrusion isn't part of a time sequential sequence of layers and so is out of order with the geologic timescale, and by this reasoning it makes sense that an intrusion represents an intrusion into the geologic column and so is not part of the geologic column.

If you look at the definition of "stratigraphic column" over at Wikipedia you can see that there's a subtle difference between it and the definition of "geologic column". "Stratigraphic column" has two definitions. One is the same as "geologic column", that definition calls it a "time column", but the other calls it a "structural column", meaning the rocks just as they are without regard to how or when they got there. I think this second definition of "stratigraphic column" is the definition that feels best to HBD and myself.

As Edge once commented, all during his education there was barely a nit of a attention paid to the definition of "geologic column". Like any word it's just a label, and the details of what any specific use of the word actually refers to are what's important. For example, if in a conversation among geologists someone were to refer to an upside down rock sequence (where the order of layers is completely backwards to the timescale) as a "geologic column", no one would bat an eyelash because they understand what it is he's referring to. No one would say anything like, "You're claims about this rock sequence are completely wrong because that's not a geologic column." For your "argument via definition" approach to have any chance of success it would have to be true that if you don't call a rose a rose then it doesn't smell as sweet.

That words are just labels means you can't use definitions to infer how the world really works, which is what you're trying to do with the term "geologic column". You're insisting that the definition of "geologic column" excludes the possibility of adding to it, as if geologic columns could only be constructed during global floods. But what we observe happening in all low lying regions around the world today (mostly sea floor) is the creation of a time ordered sequence of sedimentary and igneous layers, the very definition of a geologic column.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Wordsmithing in next to last para.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Faith, posted 07-26-2014 5:20 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by herebedragons, posted 07-27-2014 8:28 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019