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Author Topic:   Group of atheists has filed a lawsuit
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 404 of 479 (734737)
08-01-2014 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 402 by mike the wiz
08-01-2014 5:27 PM


MtW writes:
I feel so sorry for all these atheists
I wonder how often posts from fundies start like this?
Anyway, it's a sign that everything that follows is going to be utter garbage. It's a certainty that the poster doesn't understand the very first thing about the beliefs and values of atheists and a that their own beliefs will be superimposed on them instead.
Have a bit of respect, ask a question and those of us that are atheists will try to aswer you - if, in fact, you'd like to understand our position rather than invent your own views on what we think it is.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by mike the wiz, posted 08-01-2014 5:27 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 416 of 479 (734822)
08-02-2014 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by NoNukes
08-02-2014 12:34 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
NN writes:
I don't know what atheists do on Christmas.
They exchange gifts, eat turkey, roast potatoes and sprouts, get all their family together and have a merry time. Some go to midnight mass (drunk) some sing carols (Dawkins).
But in the US, do atheist do anything special on Easter other than take Good Friday
In the UK they give Easter eggs, roll eggs down hills and plan their summer holidays.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2014 12:34 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 425 of 479 (734883)
08-03-2014 7:02 AM


Definitely no religious significance at all. Oh no, not even a bit. Quack

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 426 of 479 (734918)
08-03-2014 4:08 PM


Just wondering, what other shape would have been rescued out of the rubble and put on a plinth? Why was that particular shape recovered and revered?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 427 by RAZD, posted 08-03-2014 4:17 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 438 of 479 (735018)
08-04-2014 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 437 by New Cat's Eye
08-04-2014 3:43 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
CS writes:
The cross has a genuine secular interest in being displayed to recount the history of events around 9/11. That's undisputed historical significance in the absence of any ulterior religious motives. Case closed.
This is circular - the only interest in that particular piece of metal is because of its religious significance. If they'd actually wanted something secular, they'd have chosen a different shape - they had an infinite number to choose from.
Truth is, they couldn't do anything else could they?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-04-2014 3:43 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 439 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-04-2014 4:28 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 440 of 479 (735020)
08-04-2014 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 439 by New Cat's Eye
08-04-2014 4:28 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
CS writes:
The case is closed. You lost. Get over it.
I've nothing to get over, it ain't my country and I personally think it's pretty cool. I'd have voted to keep it if asked.
It doesn't get us passed the very, very obvious fact that it was chosen because of its religious significance.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-04-2014 4:28 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 443 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-04-2014 5:29 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 444 of 479 (735024)
08-04-2014 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 443 by New Cat's Eye
08-04-2014 5:29 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
CS writes:
That's why it was chosen by the rescuers for a meeting spot, etc., but that's not why the officials want it in the museum
Well of course, that's what they have to say because of your inconvenient constitution - it's making everyone torture words and feelings. Truth is it was picked for its religious significance and it has a religious significance now - a very obvious one. It looks like a duck....not much point calling it anything else but a duck except to avoid a legalistic difficulty.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-04-2014 5:29 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 448 by ringo, posted 08-05-2014 12:09 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 461 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-06-2014 10:19 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 450 of 479 (735087)
08-05-2014 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 448 by ringo
08-05-2014 12:09 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
'yeh, right.' as the kids say.......or, as my dad used to say, 'pull the other one it's got bells on.'
The museum chose an undeniable religious symbol. The rest is pure bullshit.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 448 by ringo, posted 08-05-2014 12:09 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 451 by ringo, posted 08-05-2014 1:06 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 453 by Jon, posted 08-05-2014 4:48 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 452 of 479 (735096)
08-05-2014 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 451 by ringo
08-05-2014 1:06 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Ringo writes:
The bullshit is yours. The museum chose a symbol of hope. The people who had the hope happened to be Christians.
There'll be a few million people view that symbol in the next year, would you bet me anything at all that if you interviewed them and asked them what does the symbol represent that more would say hope than religion or Christianity or some such?
And for those three people who say 'hope' how many do you think would answer the follow up question 'why?' With something about salvation?
Only a handful of atheists seem to see that as a constitutional problem.
Really, was there a poll?
But like I said, I'd vote for it, I just wouldn't pretend that it's not a crucifix and holds no religious significance.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by ringo, posted 08-05-2014 1:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 454 by Jon, posted 08-05-2014 5:02 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 463 by ringo, posted 08-06-2014 11:53 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 455 of 479 (735106)
08-05-2014 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 453 by Jon
08-05-2014 4:48 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
The reality is an enormous, physical, tangible, photographical crucifix that the entire world can see, probably the most recognisable brand on the planet - the rest is rationalised hokum designed to get around an inconvenient law.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by Jon, posted 08-05-2014 4:48 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by hooah212002, posted 08-05-2014 6:32 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 457 by Phat, posted 08-06-2014 2:05 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 464 by Jon, posted 08-06-2014 4:19 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 458 of 479 (735122)
08-06-2014 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 457 by Phat
08-06-2014 2:05 AM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Phat writes:
And....? Why does this bother you?
It doesn't bother me at all - like I say, I like the imagery - but the hypocrisy of the argument is very interesting to observe.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by Phat, posted 08-06-2014 2:05 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 459 by Phat, posted 08-06-2014 9:10 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 460 of 479 (735142)
08-06-2014 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 459 by Phat
08-06-2014 9:10 AM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Phat writes:
ou point out that the article in question is plainly religious and that society is in denial of how religion influences current culture. Right?
This is US culture specifically. No other state would agonise in this way about such an object - it's obviously iconic and it would have been picked up by any Christian based society as a powerful image. (Just to test the argument, ask yourself if that crucifix would have been used by a Muslim country.)
The problem the lawyers are having is that they want to use the icon regardless of their laws because it is so obviously an amazing thing - but have to torture logic simply because it's of deeply religious significance. It's not a conflict culture, it's purely a conflict of law.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by Phat, posted 08-06-2014 9:10 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 465 of 479 (735183)
08-06-2014 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 464 by Jon
08-06-2014 4:19 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
It's an alibi, I'll give you all that.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by Jon, posted 08-06-2014 4:19 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 471 of 479 (735193)
08-07-2014 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 461 by New Cat's Eye
08-06-2014 10:19 AM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
CS writes:
Are you saying that the museum officials are lying? That they are trying to skirt the Constitution and include a purely religious artifact into a secular museum and are committing perjury to the courts in order to save face?
Nope - they don't need to lie they're not talking about facts that can be checked, it's a philosophical discussion. They just need to create an alternative story - transparently obvious though it is - 'cos everyone in the process wants the result that they got. (Except a few atheists, and who listens to them in the USA?)

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-06-2014 10:19 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-07-2014 9:40 AM Tangle has not replied

  
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