Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,818 Year: 3,075/9,624 Month: 920/1,588 Week: 103/223 Day: 1/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Would you give up your place in heaven...
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 22 of 113 (453069)
02-01-2008 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
01-30-2008 6:25 AM


Ten for One
cavediver writes:
If God gave you the free choice, would you go to hell for these ten?
Yes. I would trust that God knew what He was doing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by cavediver, posted 01-30-2008 6:25 AM cavediver has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 36 of 113 (474011)
07-04-2008 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by iano
02-01-2008 12:10 PM


Re: Changed my mind?
Iano writes:
But what about my love for God? Is my love for God greater than my love for family?
Surely God would understand

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by iano, posted 02-01-2008 12:10 PM iano has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 113 (474295)
07-07-2008 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
01-30-2008 6:25 AM


Theoretical Hypotheticals
cavediver writes:
..if it meant that ten others destined for everlasting torment could be granted a place in heaven?
Let's say that these ten are some of the most selfless, moral, charitable people on earth - they just happened not to choose Jesus as their saviour. Perhaps they are atheists, hindus, devout muslims, whatever - they have all heard the Christian message and rejected it for one reason or another.
If God gave you the free choice, would you go to hell for these ten?
Thats quite a choice! I suppose that God would be testing me...but I don't see how my going to "Hell" would be a good example.
Theoretically and hypothetically, the answer is an obvious altruistic choice. Yes, any good person would take a bullet for the rescue of ten.
Practically, however, this question makes no sense. If these ten went to Heaven, would they suddenly have the opportunity to "meet" God? If so, could they still hypothetically reject Him and could they still stay and attend the party?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by cavediver, posted 01-30-2008 6:25 AM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2008 9:07 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 54 of 113 (474553)
07-09-2008 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by ikabod
07-09-2008 8:35 AM


ikabod writes:
can we not require of such a being higher standards than we can achieve ... even if only in intent .
Which brings up a point. Do people earn their way to this heaven based on their behavior or merit or based on Gods mercy?
The ten worthy people may well be worthy by human standards. In order to give up our own spot we must have either earned it or have thought that we were recipients of some Divine Grace of some sort....so....
giving up ones spot is a symbolic gesture like standing on the bus or light rail so that others may sit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by ikabod, posted 07-09-2008 8:35 AM ikabod has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by rueh, posted 07-09-2008 12:34 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 73 of 113 (476362)
07-23-2008 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by mike the wiz
07-23-2008 9:07 AM


Re: Theoretical Hypotheticals
Cavediver writes:
...if it meant that ten others destined for everlasting torment could be granted a place in heaven?
Let's say that these ten are some of the most selfless, moral, charitable people on earth - they just happened not to choose Jesus as their saviour. Perhaps they are atheists, hindus, devout muslims, whatever - they have all heard the Christian message and rejected it for one reason or another.
If God gave you the free choice, would you go to hell for these ten?
whereupon I replied....
Phat writes:
Thats quite a choice! I suppose that God would be testing me...but I don't see how my going to "Hell" would be a good example.
Theoretically and hypothetically, the answer is an obvious altruistic choice. Yes, any good person would take a bullet for the rescue of ten.
Practically, however, this question makes no sense. If these ten went to Heaven, would they suddenly have the opportunity to "meet" God? If so, could they still hypothetically reject Him and could they still stay and attend the party?
Then Wiz jumps into the fray.....
Theistic Mike writes:
Good point. Firstly - what is heaven?
Those who have Christ already have the Kingdom because it is within. How can someone desire to live in heaven if it is inherently foreign to them? Yet if they are perfectly righteous - it couldn't be foreign to them, and they would know Christ.
This hypothetic can only be answered biblically, assuming biblical truth under Christian theology.
It is therefore hard to give an answer an atheist would understand in the way we understand it as believers.
Hello, Wiz! (BTW )
I suppose that once I took the punishment meant for these ten altruistic infidels, whatever happened between them and God was bought and paid for by my sacrifice. It would be interesting, however, to see the resulting interaction between them and a God they didn't believe in.

"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2008 9:07 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by mike the wiz, posted 07-29-2008 7:27 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 75 of 113 (734710)
08-01-2014 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by mike the wiz
07-29-2008 7:27 AM


Ten Who Rejected Christ
Wiz writes:
there is a contradiction in terms, because we can't as believers give up what God means by righteouss, for the sake of what humans consider righteouss.
Good point.
cavediver writes:
Let's say that these ten are some of the most selfless, moral, charitable people on earth - they just happened not to choose Jesus as their saviour. Perhaps they are atheists, hindus, devout muslims, whatever - they have all heard the Christian message and rejected it for one reason or another.
If God gave you the free choice, would you go to hell for these ten?
If God gave me the choice...I would know that God was supportive of my choice and thus would go. It would be evil, however, if the ten, upon meeting Jesus...still rejected Him. In fact, if that happened, I would trust God to bring me back. The ten, apparently, chose their destiny. The real question is if they would be allowed to stay in Heaven after rejecting Jesus.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by mike the wiz, posted 07-29-2008 7:27 AM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 08-01-2014 12:54 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 77 of 113 (734776)
08-02-2014 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by ringo
08-01-2014 12:54 PM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
Because I gave my life in eternity ...with Jesus...for them to go instead, and they were too proud and independent to allow the Creator of all seen and unseen to welcome them into His world.
They wouldn't belong in Heaven. One cant simply have a spot all their own in such a place. In fact, the whole sin of rejecting God boils down to selfishness. Wanting to be allowed to live in your own little corner...in a house built by someone else and eternity bought and paid for by someone else---and still be stubborn enough not to acknowledge the gift!! Meanwhile, down in hell, I would probably be eternally miserable unless I could strike a deal allowing me to c ease to exist rather than go through what is described as eternal torment...(perhaps lament?? )

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 08-01-2014 12:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 08-02-2014 11:48 AM Phat has replied
 Message 83 by ramoss, posted 08-04-2014 12:47 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 79 of 113 (734807)
08-02-2014 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by ringo
08-02-2014 11:48 AM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
Dont you understand? There is no such thing as "your own". No man is an island nor does any man really own one. We are all renters in this universe, whether we believe the landlord exists or not.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 08-02-2014 11:48 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by ringo, posted 08-02-2014 1:21 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 81 of 113 (734990)
08-04-2014 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by ringo
08-02-2014 1:21 PM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
Gods logic is the exact opposite, however. Look at Shepherd who leaves a herd of 99 sheep in order to rescue 1 solitary sheep.
God might leave a herd of 7 billion in order to find you. What can you do for Him to be worth 7 billion souls?

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by ringo, posted 08-02-2014 1:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 08-04-2014 11:05 AM Phat has replied
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 08-05-2014 11:43 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 84 of 113 (735030)
08-04-2014 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by ramoss
08-04-2014 12:47 PM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
Obviously then my belief would be wrong. The idea that Heaven wouldn't include Jesus, however, brings up an entire alternative understanding of what Heaven was all about. Perhaps it would thus be like a giant rehab center for broken people, since every bit of what we know about the character of Jesus shows Him to be above reproach.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by ramoss, posted 08-04-2014 12:47 PM ramoss has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 85 of 113 (735031)
08-04-2014 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by jar
08-04-2014 11:05 AM


All I am saying is that we can never do enough for God. I never said we shouldnt try. I never said we should simply shirk our duties to humanity since we are imperfect.
All I am saying is that God cares as much about one soul as He does multiple souls.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 08-04-2014 11:05 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 08-04-2014 9:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 88 of 113 (735085)
08-05-2014 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
08-05-2014 11:43 AM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
The analogy is obvious...Jesus sacrificed His life for the benefit of all of us---thus would we do the same for many others...but critics assert that it was not as much of a sacrifice for the Son of God seing as He already was eternally in Heaven and would never be booted out so that we all could get in...though other commentators mention that even a moment away from communion is a huge sacrifice that we humans would never understand. I would never make a sacrifice simply out of altruistic love for others---quite honestly I dont have that much love naturally for the rest of humanity....and I wouldnt sacrifice for ten otherwise good people who had no interest in meeting the host of the venue. I guess im just too selfish.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 08-05-2014 11:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 08-05-2014 1:02 PM Phat has replied
 Message 92 by subbie, posted 08-05-2014 3:21 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 90 of 113 (735090)
08-05-2014 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by ringo
08-05-2014 1:02 PM


Re: Ten Who Rejected Christ
The whole point---which you likely disagree with since you are a works oriented type of guy---is that we need Jesus (or Gods) impartation to even be able to have the necessary love. Its not a matter of willing oneself to do the impossible and achieve the necessary altruistic effort. Anyone who is honest would likely admit that they dont have what it takes, though some would argue that we can do it ourselves. I maintain that we cannot.
As for why He would want us...(or nah) my point is that He died (and lived) for broken imperfect people...not for do-gooders who are willing and able to lay their lives down...macho style....like a fearless commando taking a bullet to protect ten.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 08-05-2014 1:02 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 08-05-2014 1:31 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 93 of 113 (735133)
08-06-2014 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by subbie
08-05-2014 3:21 PM


Crucifixion is NOT a magic trick
Keep in mind that for the son of a Deity who is human,the suffering was as bad as it would be for any other human. Its not as if He knew what it felt like to be eternal. You seem to see it as God dying and coming back to life...like a magic trick for a Deity. Jesus still experienced the event from a human perspective...He was not like superman

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by subbie, posted 08-05-2014 3:21 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by subbie, posted 08-06-2014 9:07 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 94 of 113 (735136)
08-06-2014 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by ringo
08-05-2014 1:31 PM


Impartation and Integrity
ringo writes:
Why is it that those who claim to have the impartation often don't show the love?
Good question. We need communion. We cant do it all ourselves and He wont do it all for us. Donald miller sheds some insight into his belief on the subject:
quote:
A person with integrity isn’t always a good person. There aren’t any purely good people. Another, more realistic understanding of the term integrity involves a person being integrated. And by integrated I mean they understand they have a mixture of motives. They sometimes do good. They sometimes do bad. They sometimes are loving, and they’re sometimes spiteful. Some people are better than others, but nobody is purely good and nobody is purely bad
People who attribute all the credit to God often dont hold up their end of the bargain. It may be true that God gave us the ability to breathe (metaphorically) but it is our responsibility to move and act. He doesnt automatically control us.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 08-05-2014 1:31 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 08-06-2014 11:41 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024