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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 91 of 1864 (735534)
08-17-2014 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Jon
08-17-2014 11:58 AM


Re: Re-Trinity
Jon writes:
This is the Faith and Belief forum.
If you find discussions like this to be "just waffling about nonsense", then perhaps you've found yourself in the wrong place.
Are you suggesting that the faith and belief forum is where waffling about nonsense is an acceptable replacement for an argument.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Jon, posted 08-17-2014 11:58 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Jon, posted 08-17-2014 11:31 PM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 92 of 1864 (735535)
08-17-2014 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
08-17-2014 8:57 AM


Re: Re-Trinity
Phat writes:
An artist can paint a picture of many zoo animals but that does not make the artist a zebra.
Bad analogy: God didn't paint pictures of zebras; He created zebras. If zebras are evil, He created evil. If ebola is evil, He created evil. Even if ebola isn't evil per se, if it does evil, He is responsible.
Phat writes:
Get my point?
Your point is still wrong, no matter how many times you repeat it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 08-17-2014 8:57 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 08-18-2014 3:33 AM ringo has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 1864 (735560)
08-17-2014 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Tangle
08-17-2014 12:49 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
Are you suggesting that the faith and belief forum is where waffling about nonsense is an acceptable replacement for an argument.
I'm suggesting that people who post statements of belief in the Faith and Belief forum don't deserve to be accused of "waffling about nonsense"and that you should not consider yourself above the question mark.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2014 12:49 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2014 2:04 AM Jon has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 94 of 1864 (735563)
08-18-2014 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Jon
08-17-2014 11:31 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
Jon writes:
I'm suggesting that people who post statements of belief in the Faith and Belief forum don't deserve to be accused of "waffling about nonsense"
They do if they they post waffle and nonsense.
and that you should not consider yourself above the question mark.
Sheesh, are your arguments reduced to nit-picking grammar now? ...... Here's a superfluous one for then next time. ? Feel free to stick it where you like. I have a suggestion if you don't know where.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Jon, posted 08-17-2014 11:31 PM Jon has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 95 of 1864 (735572)
08-18-2014 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by ringo
08-17-2014 2:13 PM


The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Creating the possibility of evil does not make the Creator evil.
Choosing which attributes you wish to emulate was only made possible by virtue of the fact that the Creator did not make ypu only able to behave in a singular and limited fashion.
Had the Creator made it so that you were destined to only act out a limited trait, that limitation imposed on you would make you doomed and Him evil.
On the other hand, had the Creator made it so that you would never experience evil, He may well have done you a disservice by limiting the scope of your experience.
You can call Him evil if you like, and I will always disagree with you.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by ringo, posted 08-17-2014 2:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by ringo, posted 08-18-2014 11:53 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 96 of 1864 (735585)
08-18-2014 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
08-18-2014 3:33 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
Creating the possibility of evil does not make the Creator evil.
Digging a hole for people to fall into is evil.
Phat writes:
On the other hand, had the Creator made it so that you would never experience evil, He may well have done you a disservice by limiting the scope of your experience.
I'm willing to give up the experience of war, famine, genocide, etc.
Phat writes:
You can call Him evil if you like, and I will always disagree with you.
You could at least try to be consistent. You want Sky Daddy to take care of you so you never have to grow up but you also want to take the responsibility whenever Sky Daddy doesn't take care of you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 08-18-2014 3:33 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Phat, posted 08-18-2014 4:01 PM ringo has replied
 Message 99 by NoNukes, posted 08-19-2014 5:49 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 97 of 1864 (735604)
08-18-2014 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by ringo
08-18-2014 11:53 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
You could at least try to be consistent. You want Sky Daddy to take care of you so you never have to grow up but you also want to take the responsibility whenever Sky Daddy doesn't take care of you.
I could say the same about you. You want humans to be responsible for their behavior and claim that the gods don't listen anyway...and yet you pin the label on God as being responsible for evil. In essence, you believe that if there is one God, he is evil and that we humans are better off without him. Wonder who whispered that logic into your ear?
One more thing: Being in communion with God does not mean that we never grow up. I could be in communion with a bank via a personal trust and it wouldnt mean that I couldnt count. It would simply mean that I and the bank had a common interest---managing my money.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by ringo, posted 08-18-2014 11:53 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 08-19-2014 11:40 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 98 of 1864 (735635)
08-19-2014 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Phat
08-18-2014 4:01 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
You want humans to be responsible for their behavior and claim that the gods don't listen anyway...and yet you pin the label on God as being responsible for evil.
No, I'm saying that you are describing an evil God.
Phat writes:
In essence, you believe that if there is one God, he is evil and that we humans are better off without him. Wonder who whispered that logic into your ear?
Star Trek.
Phat writes:
I could be in communion with a bank via a personal trust and it wouldnt mean that I couldnt count.
But it would mean that your count doesn't count.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Phat, posted 08-18-2014 4:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 1864 (735640)
08-19-2014 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by ringo
08-18-2014 11:53 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
I'm willing to give up the experience of war, famine, genocide, etc.
None of those things are caused by God creating the earth. The earth will support 7 billion people who don't have to go to war with each other or kill each other.
The alternative, as I see it is a world without human beings at all.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by ringo, posted 08-18-2014 11:53 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 08-20-2014 11:43 AM NoNukes has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 100 of 1864 (735647)
08-20-2014 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by NoNukes
08-19-2014 5:49 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NoNukes writes:
ringo writes:
I'm willing to give up the experience of war, famine, genocide, etc.
None of those things are caused by God creating the earth.
Try to keep up.
I was responding to Phat's Message 95:
quote:
On the other hand, had the Creator made it so that you would never experience evil, He may well have done you a disservice by limiting the scope of your experience.
which seems to suggest that God created "the possibility of evil" to broaden our range of experiences. My response was that He was doing us no favour.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by NoNukes, posted 08-19-2014 5:49 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by NoNukes, posted 08-20-2014 1:13 PM ringo has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 1864 (735651)
08-20-2014 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by ringo
08-20-2014 11:43 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
which seems to suggest that God created "the possibility of evil" to broaden our range of experiences. My response was that He was doing us no favour.
Life evolved on this planet. Evolution happens because there is a competition for resources. That means a world with human life and no strife is impossible. That could only be attained if we were actually specially created in the way Creationists expect.
Not having or allowing evolution would be a disservice.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 08-20-2014 11:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 08-20-2014 1:46 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 102 of 1864 (735652)
08-20-2014 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by NoNukes
08-20-2014 1:13 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NoNukes writes:
Not having or allowing evolution would be a disservice.
Tell it to Phat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by NoNukes, posted 08-20-2014 1:13 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 08-20-2014 2:06 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 103 of 1864 (735653)
08-20-2014 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by ringo
08-20-2014 1:46 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
allowing the possibility of evil as a choice would actually compliment evolution, as the weaker people would fall in the hole and the stronger ones would avoid it.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 08-20-2014 1:46 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 08-20-2014 2:34 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 104 of 1864 (735654)
08-20-2014 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Phat
08-20-2014 2:06 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
allowing the possibility of evil as a choice would actually compliment evolution, as the weaker people would fall in the hole and the stronger ones would avoid it.
So picking on the weak is not evil?
Why couldn't God avoid creating evil by creating a world that didn't evolve?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 08-20-2014 2:06 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 08-20-2014 6:36 PM ringo has replied
 Message 106 by NoNukes, posted 08-20-2014 7:46 PM ringo has replied
 Message 986 by Phat, posted 01-18-2023 8:06 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 105 of 1864 (735655)
08-20-2014 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by ringo
08-20-2014 2:34 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
ringo writes:
So picking on the weak is not evil?
Why couldn't God avoid creating evil by creating a world that didn't evolve?
Interesting line of thought.
TED Global had a talk on Optical illusions show how we see. This fun, first-hand look at your own versatile sense of sight reveals how evolution tints your perception of what's really out there. One of the oft quoted remarks from this talk was "The brain didn't evolve to see the world as it is. It evolved to see the world as it was useful to see it." As it is a fact that we have evolved, the question as to why God didnt do it differently is actually rhetorical in the sense that we logically would want a God that was useful for ourselves. Would the absence of evolution be useful? Would you want to watch beauty contests with hairy women? Would you want to live exactly the same way your ancient ancestors lived? And....more to the point...is clubbing your neighbor over the head to steal the limited food supply for your own offspring evil?

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 08-20-2014 2:34 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by ringo, posted 08-21-2014 11:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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