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Author Topic:   What Is "The Establishment"?
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 16 of 46 (735919)
08-27-2014 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Tangle
08-27-2014 5:53 PM


Re: What Is "The Establishment"?
Tangle writes:
Y'all just think you're still in the Wild bleeding West.
And youuuuuuuuu, you guys think your still in the bloody
Victorian age sipping tea and eating biscuits while the zulus are impaling everyone around you.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 17 of 46 (735921)
08-27-2014 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Taq
08-27-2014 6:15 PM


Re: What Is "The Establishment"?
So as far as you are concerned "the establishment" is just "the government"?
What about other facetss such as the media, big business, law enforcement etc?
Taq writes:
When your ideology is that government doesn't work, where is the incentive in making government work?
Here is another section of the article linked to in the OP:
quote:
Yet there is a logical flaw at the heart of establishment thinking. It may abhor the state — but it is completely dependent on the state to flourish. Bailed-out banks; state-funded infrastructure; the state's protection of property; research and development; a workforce educated at great public expense; the topping up of wages too low to live on; numerous subsidies — all are examples of what could be described as a "socialism for the rich" that marks today's establishment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Taq, posted 08-27-2014 6:15 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by nwr, posted 08-27-2014 6:53 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 20 by dronestar, posted 08-28-2014 10:06 AM Straggler has replied
 Message 25 by Taq, posted 08-28-2014 4:08 PM Straggler has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 18 of 46 (735924)
08-27-2014 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tangle
08-27-2014 4:40 PM


Re: What Is "The Establishment"?
The trick is to keep them in balance.
Maybe we should be trying to keep them off balance.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 19 of 46 (735925)
08-27-2014 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Straggler
08-27-2014 6:27 PM


Re: What Is "The Establishment"?
What about other facetss such as the media, big business, law enforcement etc?
I'd be inclined to consider those part of the establishment.
Well, that should change to "big media" rather than "media". I guess evcforum counts as media of a sort, but does not count as part of the establishment.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 20 of 46 (735940)
08-28-2014 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Straggler
08-27-2014 6:27 PM


Re: What Is "The Establishment"?
STRAG writes:
What about other facets such as the media . . .
You mean, like . . . the BBC?
Yeah, right, they don't serve the wealth or political elites.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Straggler, posted 08-27-2014 6:27 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Straggler, posted 08-28-2014 11:03 AM dronestar has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 21 of 46 (735942)
08-28-2014 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by dronestar
08-28-2014 10:06 AM


Re: What Is "The Establishment"?
Ah - You are your little pet peeve......
The BBC is a funny one. It is part of the British establishment in many ways. But as a publicly funded service provider it is the focus of much hate from the Murdoch media empire, the British right wing press, the conservative party (and in recent time under Blair the Labour party too). So it is a somewhat subversive element......
Link
But I know none of that will detract from your one man hate campaign...
Just bear in mind that you and Murdoch are at one on this issue. Rarely a good place to be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by dronestar, posted 08-28-2014 10:06 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by dronestar, posted 08-28-2014 1:23 PM Straggler has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 22 of 46 (735951)
08-28-2014 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Straggler
08-28-2014 11:03 AM


Re: What Is "The Establishment"?
STRAG writes:
Ah - You aND your little pet peeve......
Ahh, just like old times.
Yeah, you're right, it's a LITTLE pet peeve of mine to care that so many innocent lives are oppressed/crushed for the benefit of so few. I am certainly worthy of your disdain, good job Straggler.
As a father, I hope you don't teach your child to be an apathetic ass. But that IS the unique quality that the establishment wants you to have. Yeaaah BBC! Mission accomplished!
STRAG writes:
Just bear in mind that you and Murdoch are at one on this issue. Rarely a good place to be.
Ahhh, the desperate conflation. Gee I miss Crashfrog's honest debate tactics too. Let me try one too: "Just bear in mind you and Mussolini both drank water."
STRAG writes:
But as a publicly funded service provider . . .
Yes, a publicly funded service provider that serves the establishment. That you seem to think it can't be both is a bewilderment.
Why don't 100% of Brits demand that Tony Blair hangs? Show me repeated BBC articles calling for Tony Blair's hanging as a war criminal. That WOULD be a public service. He is guilty of the supreme international crime, war of aggression. There is no higher crime. Yet he walks freely amongst you Brits. What is the BBC waiting for?
If the BBC was doing their job "providing for the public," for the masses over the few elites interests, why do the Brits support the USA's foreign policies like a cowardly little poodle? I'd be mortified.
I leave it to you Straggler to show me why, if BBC is doing such a great job in educating the common Brit, "providing for the public," why isn't Britian a utopia?
Why?
I'll wait.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by xongsmith, posted 08-28-2014 2:57 PM dronestar has replied
 Message 24 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2014 3:15 PM dronestar has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 23 of 46 (735955)
08-28-2014 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by dronestar
08-28-2014 1:23 PM


Re: What Is "The Establishment"?
Dronester asks of many:
Why don't 100% of Brits demand that Tony Blair hangs? Show me repeated BBC articles calling for Tony Blair's hanging as a war criminal. That WOULD be a public service. He is guilty of the supreme international crime, war of aggression. There is no higher crime. Yet he walks freely amongst you Brits. What is the BBC waiting for?
I would suggest that they might be waiting for the USA to imprison Dick Cheney, the vicious gang leader of these awful crimes, to be imprisoned for life first. Then GWBush, Rumsfeld and so on. Blair's was but a relatively minor role in the crime.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by dronestar, posted 08-28-2014 1:23 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 24 of 46 (735956)
08-28-2014 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by dronestar
08-28-2014 1:23 PM


Re: What Is "The Establishment"?
dronester writes:
Yes, a publicly funded service provider that serves the establishment. That you seem to think it can't be both is a bewilderment.
Um, which establishment would that be? At every election the BBC is attacked by all political parties.
why isn't Britian a utopia?
Isn't it? Bugger, je suis desolet

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by dronestar, posted 08-28-2014 1:23 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by dronestar, posted 08-28-2014 4:42 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 29 by dronestar, posted 09-03-2014 12:51 PM Tangle has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 25 of 46 (735959)
08-28-2014 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Straggler
08-27-2014 6:27 PM


Re: What Is "The Establishment"?
So as far as you are concerned "the establishment" is just "the government"?
The government is the tip of the spear, so to speak. What corporations can or can't do is determined by government regulation. In return, politicians are given or denied campaign contributions. It is also the politicians that keep this relationship between regulatoin and campaign finances in place.
The government holds the reins on this one, even if they are being told where to go. We can't expect companies to go out of their way to make less money. That isn't how they are set up. However, we should expect our elected representatives to do what is best for the people. I think that is where the divide really comes in.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 26 of 46 (735961)
08-28-2014 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by xongsmith
08-28-2014 2:57 PM


Re: What Is "The Establishment"?
Hi Xongs,
xongs writes:
I would suggest that they might be waiting for the USA to imprison Dick Cheney, the vicious gang leader of these awful crimes, to be imprisoned for life first.
Hah! It won't happen in america because we don't have the incredible humanitarian BBC to provide those wonderful public service announcements for the benefit of society.
How great can the BBC be if british society is every bit sociopathic as american society? My god, how many times was arch-villain Thatcher elected? Face it, for all the "good" BBC does, the brits might as well have Faux News.

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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 27 of 46 (735963)
08-28-2014 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Tangle
08-28-2014 3:15 PM


Re: What Is "The Establishment"?
Tang writes:
Um, which establishment would that be?
Um, ask Tony Blair. You can be sure if I (not a member of the establishment) murdered a million people, I wouldn't be free to walk around your society.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2014 3:15 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2014 5:34 PM dronestar has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 28 of 46 (735966)
08-28-2014 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by dronestar
08-28-2014 4:42 PM


Re: What Is "The Establishment"?
Oddly, Tony Blair isn't returning my calls so it's down to you I'm afraid.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by dronestar, posted 08-28-2014 4:42 PM dronestar has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 29 of 46 (736124)
09-03-2014 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Tangle
08-28-2014 3:15 PM


Re: What Is "The Establishment"?
drone writes:
why isn't Britian a utopia?
Tang writes:
Isn't it?
quote:
Years of Rape and ‘Utter Contempt’ in Britain
. . . at least 1,400 children, some as young as 11, were groomed for sexual exploitation while the authorities looked the other way.
But the report also outlined how those victims and parents who did ask for help were mostly let down by the police and social services,
for years there was an undeniable culture of institutional sexism. Her investigation heard that police referred to victims as tarts and to the girls’ abuse as a lifestyle choice.
Life in an English Town Where Abuse of Young Girls Flourished - The New York Times
Yep, I can easily see how you think you are living in a utopia all right.
God bless the BBC, . . . boy you certainly don't see things like this happening in other places without such great BBC public servicing.
And if history is any indication, . . . if anybody can investigate sexual abuse of children, the BBC surely can.
Yeaaah BBC!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2014 3:15 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Tangle, posted 09-04-2014 4:01 AM dronestar has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 30 of 46 (736134)
09-04-2014 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by dronestar
09-03-2014 12:51 PM


Re: What Is "The Establishment"?
Yeh I know. last week I scratched my car on the gate post and the strap broke on my suitcase. Bloody useless BBC, can't do anything right......

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by dronestar, posted 09-03-2014 12:51 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by dronestar, posted 09-04-2014 12:19 PM Tangle has replied

  
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