Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Search for Moderate Islam
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 4 of 432 (736858)
09-14-2014 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
09-13-2014 7:14 PM


Have a look at the Muslim Council of Britain's website: We have a problem
They promote a very moderate and widely held interpretation of Islam. Have a look at their recent press releases, condemning IS atrocities.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 09-13-2014 7:14 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by NoNukes, posted 09-14-2014 4:44 AM vimesey has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 164 of 432 (746547)
01-08-2015 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Coyote
01-07-2015 11:32 PM


Yep, no one is going to be surprised to hear someone from IS condoning the Charlie Hebdo massacre.
But I heard a good number of Muslim organisations in the radio yesterday condemning the attack, and wanting the murderers brought to justice.
It's easy enough to dig up supportive rhetoric from the likes of IS, but it's just as easy to find Muslim condemnation, eg:
"The Muslim Council of Britain condemns this attack. Whomever the attackers are, and whatever the cause may be, nothing justifies the taking of life."

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Coyote, posted 01-07-2015 11:32 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Faith, posted 01-08-2015 1:33 PM vimesey has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 165 of 432 (746548)
01-08-2015 4:19 AM


Here's an extract from al Jazeera's website piece:
"This extremely grave barbaric action is also an attack against democracy and the freedom of the press," the French Muslim Council (CFCM) said in a statement.
The body represents France's Muslim community, which is Europe's biggest and estimated to number between 3.5 million and five million people."
There is a very broad swathe of moderate Muslim opinion, which can be engaged with and worked with, to deal with what is the very significant danger posed by Muslim extremism.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Jon, posted 01-08-2015 8:53 AM vimesey has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(3)
Message 167 of 432 (746556)
01-08-2015 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Jon
01-08-2015 8:53 AM


Ok, but the title of this thread is The Search for Moderate Islam. When part of the reply is to offer quotations which demonstrate a moderate Islam, and you dismiss those as "PC", without offering any evidence for that assertion, does it not concern you that you might be being prejudiced ?
Edited by vimesey, : Typo

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Jon, posted 01-08-2015 8:53 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by jar, posted 01-08-2015 9:48 AM vimesey has replied
 Message 196 by Jon, posted 01-08-2015 10:29 PM vimesey has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(2)
Message 170 of 432 (746561)
01-08-2015 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by jar
01-08-2015 9:48 AM


Re: PC?
Their editorial slant is likely to be subtly different from that of Fox ;-)
However, the reason I chose al Jazeera to source a quotation, was to show that even that bete noire of the conservative right is reporting condemnation of the massacre. In fact, the page I copied and pasted from (the main website page) only quoted condemnation.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by jar, posted 01-08-2015 9:48 AM jar has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 174 of 432 (746597)
01-08-2015 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Tangle
01-08-2015 12:36 PM


They're gonna need way more than a million.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2015 12:36 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2015 1:26 PM vimesey has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(1)
Message 183 of 432 (746619)
01-08-2015 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Faith
01-08-2015 1:33 PM


The problem is that Islam itself, its own "holy" books, is all for the taking of SOME lives, and jihad is on their books, the killing of nonMuslims for Allah is on their books. There are no doubt moderate Muslims but they are out of tune with their religion. They can't very well condemn an action that is prescribed in their own books and be trusted.
And in your holy book, God orders the stoning to death of some poor sod who picked up sticks on the Sabbath, along with any number of killings, massacres, even genocides.
Moderate Christians explain away these rather nasty injunctions, and rightly so.
Moderate Muslims also distinguish such nastiness as there is in their holy book, and preach love, tolerance and understanding.
Not so different, from a genuinely objective perspective.
Edited by vimesey, : Clarification

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Faith, posted 01-08-2015 1:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Faith, posted 01-08-2015 10:08 PM vimesey has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 187 of 432 (746637)
01-08-2015 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Tangle
01-08-2015 6:01 PM


You're ok Tangle - the UN is prepared to adopt "racial discrimination" as a portmanteau term, so as to include discrimination based on religion too: International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination - Wikipedia
So no need to spend too long in that particular semantic rabbit hole.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2015 6:01 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Faith, posted 01-08-2015 10:18 PM vimesey has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 198 of 432 (746658)
01-09-2015 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Faith
01-08-2015 10:08 PM


And have you ever actually spoken to a Muslim, in order to find out what "jihad" actually means ? As opposed to simply swallowing whole, the take of Fox News etc on the term ?
Try looking here first of all: Islamic Supreme Council of America — Islamic Supreme Council of America
This is a balanced piece, by the Islamic Supreme Council of America. It acknowledges that the term includes rare instances of properly sanctioned and defensive military action, to defend the faith, where no peaceful means are available. But it includes as well, working hard to be a good Muslim, internally and externally, and seeking peacefully to persuade.
As the piece acknowledges, certain groups have misappropriated the term, but it is clear (not just from this piece, but if you actually engage with Muslims, and listen to them (instead of ill-informed media channels)), that Islam is not the "murderous cult" you denigrate it as.
What IS and other terrorist groups are doing, in the name is Islam, is vile, and I support every effort to stamp them out. But if we blindly and with prejudice buy into the moronic media reports, blame all Muslims, and fail to engage with the mainstream of Muslim society to seek jointly to stamp out the terrorism, then we will fail and fail badly - and all as a result of our own prejudice.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Faith, posted 01-08-2015 10:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Faith, posted 01-09-2015 9:40 AM vimesey has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(1)
Message 200 of 432 (746664)
01-09-2015 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Jon
01-08-2015 10:29 PM


If you are defining Islam as something which moderate Muslims don't practice (which is pretty high-handed of you, to say the least), then by definition, any attacks you make on what you see as Islam, must exclude the faith of those moderate Muslims, who I understand to make up the vast majority of the world's Muslim population.
You can't have it both ways. You can't define Islam in such a way as to exclude from it the beliefs of moderate Muslims, and then say that the faith of the majority of the Muslim world is not moderate.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Jon, posted 01-08-2015 10:29 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Jon, posted 01-09-2015 9:18 AM vimesey has not replied
 Message 203 by RAZD, posted 01-09-2015 9:37 AM vimesey has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(1)
Message 216 of 432 (746697)
01-09-2015 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by Faith
01-09-2015 10:20 AM


We've had quite a range of dodges on the part of the prejudiced over the last few posts.
The title of the thread is the search for moderate Islam. Whilst acknowledging that there are some real, hard problems with extremist terrorists, proclaiming Islam, we give examples of moderate Muslims condemning the horror and reassuring people that it has nothing to do with their religion.
Rather than looking at this and asking whether the prejudiced crap you've been fed might, in fact, be utter bollocks, you:
- reject it, without evidence, as "PC";
- say that it must be lies, because although you've never read anything directly yourself, some bloke in a book said they're lies, and he wrote a book, so it must be true;
- say that oh sure, they say this NOW, but they never USED to; and
- (in the case of Jon) try to cobble together some illogical attempt to separate someone's religion from what they themselves believe it is.
You're like the guy who fell off the boat in Egypt - in denial.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Faith, posted 01-09-2015 10:20 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Faith, posted 01-09-2015 11:05 AM vimesey has replied
 Message 220 by Faith, posted 01-09-2015 11:15 AM vimesey has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(2)
Message 219 of 432 (746703)
01-09-2015 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by Faith
01-09-2015 11:05 AM


And I believe that you have been duped.
However, I do not believe in magical floods, talking snakes, 969 year old human beings, virgin births or an earth which is 6,000 years old.
I like my odds.
Edited by vimesey, : Better use of negatives !

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Faith, posted 01-09-2015 11:05 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Faith, posted 01-09-2015 11:20 AM vimesey has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024