This view [that atrocious acts are simply being justified by religion instead of being rooted in religion] is built largely on Western secular morality. In the West, people derive their morals secularly; they do not decide what is right or wrong based on what is in a bookany bookbut based on their own judgement of decency, fairness, equality, humility, and humanity. We may find plenty of people, especially in the U.S., who argue that their morality comes from God, from reading the Bible. But when we ask them the typical questions asked of such people ("If God told you to rape children, would you start raping children?"), their inability to provide a resounding "yes" responseand instead weaving around various excuses to dismiss the issuebetrays the fact that their morality is secular; it is not religious.
That any of their morals have correlates in religious texts is coincidental: they established their morality first, and found the religious morals that agreed with it later. And this attitude toward morality is the basis of questions such as "Do we suppose that if Islam did not exist, that the people who chop off heads would not find SOME OTHER JUSTIFICATION in their hearts, for chopping off those heads?" They would find other reasons were they ultimately holders of a secular morality; but not if they are holders of a religious morality.
By and large, they are the latter.
So I won't blame "Islam" perse, because that is not fair to the ones who practice it without doing any harm, they should be allowed to do that, and to show that it can be done without violence, to show up the ones that choose the extreme version.
That's kind of what I was getting at with this thread. Of course there are moderate Muslims. But is there a moderate Islam? NoNukes brushed over the difference between a Muslim (a single person) and Islam (a religion) when he suggested googling "moderate Muslim", but, of course, that's not what this thread is about.
This isn't a search for moderate Muslims; this is a search for moderate Islam.
The Islamic faith is clearly in crisis, and as far as can be observed, Muslims everywhere are eerily silent on the matter.
Why?
If this is all so against their faith, why aren't they trying harder to tell us?
Or are they really just that content with letting folks like ISIS make Islam everywhere look bad (VERY BAD!)?
Just what are you arguing here?
I'm arguing nothing. I'm trying to find a form of Islam that is moderate. Moderate Muslims? That's well and good, but it's not what I'm looking for.
Where is a list of beliefs?
Where are the Muslim communities that speak out, not just against violence, but against the passages in their holy book that call for the death of non-believers?
Perhaps the best place to start our search would be to answer the question:
What is moderate Islam?
If we can define it, maybe we can more easily find it.
I don't believe what you say is true in the least. Tell me about how and where you searched.
I searched.
But, in all honesty, I really shouldn't have to. Examples of Islamic violence are so prominent that I can learn about them passively.
The evil voice of Islam is very loud. The peaceful voice of Islam is not made heard.
If peaceful Muslims want their religion to stand for peace, then their voices should be loud enough to be heard over the voices of the evil Muslims.
If they aren't getting their voice as loudindeed, if they aren't even tryingthen it means they are complacent and content with groups such as ISIS being the voice for their religion.
This is, after all, their religion. It is not my religion.
Where is my obligation to vindicate it or its followers?
Re: fanatics are fanatics no matter what brand of religion is used
No, we have it, just from Christians that want to write their beliefs into laws (abortion, marriage, women's rights, homosexuality, etc etc etc).
There are loonies in every bin.
Fortunately for Christians (and the Western world where they dominate) there is at least a moderate Christianity for the vast majority of Christians to believe in.
You probably did something that you feel you can rationalize to yourself was a sufficient search, but your reticence to reveal the methodology reveals you aren't sure that other people will agree, indeed it may even be a little embarrassing right? I mean it's not like getting to know Muslims is even humanly possible, right? Best to stick with scary stories in the media.
I have googled.
I have watched Muslim community meetings.
I have met and interacted with many Muslims from all age ranges; newly immigrated; second, third, or more generation American citizens; with various countries of origin.
My experience, personal experience even, with Muslims has been sufficient.
The reason I do not go in depth is that were I to list in full detail my encounters and experiences with Islamic followers it may serve to jeopardize my anonymity.
You know those people that had the courage to stand up against ISIS? Yeah, they're dead now so you'll never have the opportunity to hear their voices.
But isn't that just it!? They don't have to be dead! Where are all the Muslims in the Westwhere speaking out against ISIS and Middle Eastern Islamic governments is not met with deathshouting down the atrocities? Where are they? Show me the community meetings. Show me the demonstrations in the street; the parades for peace.
If they want their voice heard over the voice of ISIS, they are not getting what they want.
I want to believe they exist. But I see no evidence so far.
You could argue you have a social and moral obligation to understand something before talking shit about it. Just a thought.
If you think I don't understand, then help me understand. Stop pointing to your good buddies who happen to be Muslims. I don't know them. It's no help to me.
If it's understanding that is sought, then we can go back to the beginning and try to at least define what is meant by 'moderate Islam'.
What is moderate Islam? What differentiates it from the violent Islam practiced by terrorists and Islamic governments in the Middle East?
quote:CAIR believes the active practice of Islam strengthens the social and religious fabric of our nation.
What is the active practice of Islam? Is that practice radical, extreme, moderate, liberal, secular?
Is beheading apostates an active practice of Islam?
Is beating insubordinate wives an active practice of Islam?
Is stoning homosexuals an active practice of Islam?
In as much as these things are actively practiced by Islamic governments and Islamic organizations, it would seem that these are indeed active practices of Islam.
So is that what CAIR believes strengthens the social and religious fabric of our nation?
It's really sad. Because there are verses of the Koran and other Islamic texts that have served as the basis for some of the most outrageous human rights violations of the last few decades. And there seems to be no widespread moderate interpretation of these verses to counter the interpretation used by those who commit those outrageous violations of human rights.
Is there a moderate Islam that has something to say about these verses?
If so, what does it say about these verses? Is there an alternate interpretation that is used? Is it a consistent and philosophically sound interpretation that can be used as the basis of a moderate Islamic faith? Or are the moderate interpretations only the random work of individual moderate Muslims?
Like I said, it's sad. Because if there really is a moderate Islam practiced by a large number of moderate Muslims, then it is being outvoiced by the extreme Islam of groups such as ISIS and Islamic Middle Eastern governments.
Is it a consistent and philosophically sound interpretation that can be used as the basis of a moderate Islamic faith
Why would you expect that? It's a pile of horse manure just like when Christians do it.
I'm aware that it's all BS, but when I talk about consistent and philosophically sound, I mean something that can be readily grasped by folks new to the religion. Something that doesn't give easily to being changed (perhaps by having some perceived authority behind it), and that can be made sense of in light of the general principles of the religion as a whole.
I really didn't want this to become a comparison thread between Islam and other faiths (especially Christianity, since there's plenty of room for improvement there as well), but it seems we already 'went there', so here is an example of such a thing from Christianity:
We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, begotten from the Father before all ages, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made; of the same essence as the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven; he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary, and was made human. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried. The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures. He ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will never end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life. He proceeds from the Father and the Son, and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified. He spoke through the prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church. We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look forward to the resurrection of the dead, and to life in the world to come. Amen.
This statement is consistent and rests on the general principles of the religion. It is also rather bare-bones. It outlines some of the essential aspects of the faith, and that is all.
More than anything, though, it is established. It is known. And it is authoritative. It transcends the individual believer. It is one of those things where, if everyone who calls themselves a Christian suddenly started claiming that Jesus was a cow who freed the world from sin by nurturing souls with magic manure, we could point to this passage and say "that's not what Christianity is!" At the same time, it is believable as a basic Christian belief statement on the grounds that it is accepted by all Christians (perhaps with only minor tweaking). In other words, if this statement said that Jesus was a cow who freed the world with manure, we could easily say that the statement has no bearing, and cannot speak for, modern Christianity.
This is what I'm looking for regarding Islam. It should be something that describes the basic tenets of the faith. It should account for the basic beliefs. It should account for basic behavior. Not the scattered writings or belief statements of a few Muslims, but something that can be easily recognized as a statement of beliefs held in common across the Islamic world.
I don't think this asks too much. I also don't think it's too confusing or unreasonable to ask for this as opposed to lists of moderate Muslims. I'm glad there's moderate Muslims, but I'm really looking for something that can be called 'moderate Islam'.
This thread really isn't about Christianity or Buddhism or Judaism or Bahaism or...
It's one thing to bring up comparisons to familiar things for clarity's sake. But I really don't think all this bickering about which religion or group of people is the 'worst' is really on topic.
We're looking for moderate Islam: a way to define it and places to find it.
That you think asking western cultural Christians for references to texts that meet your requirements is a sensible research tactic, causes me to think I've found another flaw in your methods.
Anyone is free to participate on this forum; you know that. I would be thrilled for some input from Muslims.
But I would think that were moderate Islam an accessible realityi.e., it exists and can be easily researchedthat anyone should be able to figure out what it is and where it is practiced.
I've posted text from the Hadith that may be considered moderate (the Golden Rule).
If the Golden Rule is the defining characteristic of Islam, then I suppose we are all MuslimsChristians, Jews, and atheists alike.
But let's be honest; this is not the defining characteristic of Islam. It doesn't adequately define the beliefs of the religion's followers; it does not account for their behaviors; it does not distinguish Muslims from non-Muslims.
And now you want me to find something sufficiently close to the Catholic Catechism?
The Nicene Creed sufficiently defines the beliefs of the religion's followers, accounts for their principle behaviors (holidays, etc.), and distinguishes Christians from non-Christians. It isn't the be-all-and-end-all of Christianity; but it's a good start to understanding the religion, and it captures the essential tenets required of believers.
Look up the Aquidah, maybe something in there will resemble something you are looking for. Also the Five Pillars and Six Articles of Faith.
The Six Articles are a joke. They don't even include the typical Islamic mantra declaring Muhammad a prophet of Allah:
Belief in God Belief in His Angels Belief in His Books Belief in His Prophets and Messengers Belief in the Day of Judgment Belief in God’s Divine Decree
What Christian would disagree with these statements? How can these Articles define Islam when they cannot even distinguish it from other belief systems?
The Five Pillars are also somewhat lacking in their explanatory power. They don't seem to account for a number of Muslim practices, moderate or otherwise, such as the veiling of women.
Showing you moderate Muslims is therefore sufficient to prove the existence of moderate Islam. Even if their religion is utterly inconsistent with ancient religious texts and there is no textual support for any of it - that would still be true. Moderate Islam exists in the minds of the Moderate Muslims. I don't know their theological rationalizations and textual support for all of it, I'm afraid (and much of it only exists in other languages in printed form in any event), but to deny it exists is just pretty foolish.
What are its essential characteristics? What is the minimum one must do to be a Muslim?
Again, to clarify; such a list should define the basic beliefs; account for behavior; and distinguish followers from non-followers.
Are your demands going to become ever more ludicrous?
My demands have not changed even if your understanding of them has.
Believe that Allah is the one God. That Muhammed is His Prophet. Pray 5 times in a certain way. Give 2.5% to the poor Fast during Ramadan Take part in the pilgrimage at some point
That's the minimum. You may have come across this list of five 'colonnades' before.
Good.
But isn't there more?
You're welcome. Oh you actually ignored my primary suggestion and just looked at the supplementary stuff. I guess short lists are just easier to read or something.
I saw it all. But none of it answers the question completely. The Nicene Creed was given as an example of the kind of belief statement that might define a religion or a sect within that religion. It is not essential that only things regarded specifically as Creeds be included.
After all, there is still something missing. We might as well include all that we can.
Ah - so you have in fact been looking for a singular document that describes Islam succinctly, poetically but descriptively and not, you know, searching for Moderate Islam as I had foolishly thought? Maybe you should edit the Title. And the OP. And all of your posts up to Message 60. I seem to remember you were asking for 'the community meetings. Show me the demonstrations in the street; the parades for peace.' You also asked about interpretations of individual verses, but never gave any specific examples to discuss, so...
There are plenty of ways for the question to be answered. There are many things that might satisfy the search for moderate Islam.
Unfortunately, we've not seen a satisfying number of those things in this thread.
There is an elephant in this room regarding Islamic practice that absolutely must be addressed by anyone attempting to demonstrate the existence of a moderate Islam.
Well it's difficult to find many statements about shared beliefs and practices of a religious group that is not a creed. Because that's what creeds are.
How about informal surveys?
What next, how about we discuss moderate Islam?
Of course. I've been waiting for that since I started this thread!
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