The Search for Moderate Islam

RAZD -- good points.But one thing that must also be considered is how intolerant many Muslims are of those who don't believe as they do.We have seen a number of examples in this country. Recently a Muslim group demanded a restaurant remove a picture of bacon from their sign. We have Muslim taxicab drivers who don't want to transport dogs or customers with alcohol.In England and Germany we have areas patrolled by the Sharia police. Dress or act the wrong way and you're liable to be beaten.It seems that once an area reaches a certain percentage of Muslims, they begin to try changing everything they can to reflect their way of doing things. Google around, you'll find examples.

Thank you for pointing this out.It is one thing that we do not see in our corner of the world; but that is because Islam does not have a hold here (yet).But what if we look at areas where Islam does have a hold? What if we look to countries that are Islam-governed?What do they tell us?How has Islamic rule worked so far?

All well and good, perhaps, but have they liberated their women, yet?

The Islamic faith is clearly in crisis, and as far as can be observed, Muslims everywhere are eerily silent on the matter.Why?If this is all so against their faith, why aren't they trying harder to tell us?Or are they really just that content with letting folks like ISIS make Islam everywhere look bad (VERY BAD!)? I'm arguing nothing. I'm trying to find a form of Islam that is moderate. Moderate Muslims? That's well and good, but it's not what I'm looking for.Where is a list of beliefs?Where are the Muslim communities that speak out, not just against violence, but against the passages in their holy book that call for the death of non-believers?Perhaps the best place to start our search would be to answer the question:What is moderate Islam?If we can define it, maybe we can more easily find it.Jon

But one thing that must also be considered is how intolerant many humans are of those who don't believe as they do. Is what Fox News probably said.In reality, a Muslim woman made a negative comment about it on a forum and the owners voluntary pulled the sign. Why is this a relevant data point? I'm pretty sure Christians are regularly applying pressure to American businesses, too (and usually a bit more directly and with six orders or magnitude more people involved). This is not being intolerant of others, this is a clash of cultural norms. There are Christian doctors who have refused to assist patients with life threatening conditions because they are transexual and opted to let them die in agony instead, pharmacists who refuse to sell the morning after pill, cake shop owners getting pissy about gay marriage. NOT UNIQUE TO MUSLIMS. Why are you trying to paint a picture of westernizing Muslims as being so problematic by pointing to a small group of arseholes patrolling East London to the chagrin of most Muslims who saw it as a threat to their peace. You know Jews do this too, right? And American Christians once upon a time had their own modesty patrols, I mean lynch mobs. Yeah, Christians didn't try and increase their numbers to the point where they can influence culture so that eventually they would have complete cultural stranglehold on the Americas, Europe, Australia, and parts of Africa - so thankfully that doesn't undermine your point at all. Bloody Romans.I think it's called 'normal human social interaction'. What would you do if you were in a culture that kept black slaves? Would you try to get as many likeminded people together to fight to change it, or would you just let it happen? The former undermines your narrative that this is a bad thing, the latter undermines your courage or character. What if you lived in a culture that teaches creationism in high school biology classes? Would you fight that? Even if it was just, say participating in a forum or something mild like that.

If all you are going to say is this, you could at least be specific.

I don't believe what you say is true in the least. Tell me about how and where you searched. Do you require the same thing of moderate Christians?Moderate muslims say that the radicals are misrepresnting Islam. Before you give the radicals the high road, show me that the moderates are wrong. Look at the form followed by moderate Muslims. Muslims are by definition Islamists. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Perhaps you should check out what is happening a bit more.You seem to be dismissing an issue, as many people do, that is perhaps a bit more involved than you realize.

Erm, thanks for attempting to summarize my Message 20, but if I was going to criticize I'd say you summarized it to the point of making it hopelessly vague and generic. I can't think of many threads where this summary couldn't be used.Anyway, if you ever do feel like 'checking out what is happening' so that we can discuss in what ways it is 'more involved than you realize' please do try and put some effort into making a response.

I searched.But, in all honesty, I really shouldn't have to. Examples of Islamic violence are so prominent that I can learn about them passively.The evil voice of Islam is very loud. The peaceful voice of Islam is not made heard.If peaceful Muslims want their religion to stand for peace, then their voices should be loud enough to be heard over the voices of the evil Muslims.If they aren't getting their voice as loudindeed, if they aren't even tryingthen it means they are complacent and content with groups such as ISIS being the voice for their religion.This is, after all, their religion. It is not my religion.Where is my obligation to vindicate it or its followers?

You probably did something that you feel you can rationalize to yourself was a sufficient search, but your reticence to reveal the methodology reveals you aren't sure that other people will agree, indeed it may even be a little embarrassing right? I mean it's not like getting to know Muslims is even humanly possible, right? Best to stick with scary stories in the media. As demonstrated - all you are listening out for is the evil voices. You don't seem capable of tracking down the peaceful voices. They are - but the media you rely on doesn't give the peaceful guys nearly enough amplification so you never hear it because you don't get close enough to Muslims. Your ignorance on the matter is duly noted. Perhaps now you should STFU until you actually learn something? Or would that be considered 'unAmerican'? This is the non-sequitur of the century! You know those people that had the courage to stand up against ISIS? Yeah, they're dead now so you'll never have the opportunity to hear their voices. And like all religions, nobody is in control of it. There are certainly big problems we need to tackle, but denying basic facts about the situation isn't going to help us resolve the problem - its just going to entrench your point of view. You could argue you have a social and moral obligation to understand something before talking shit about it. Just a thought.

No, we have it, just from Christians that want to write their beliefs into laws (abortion, marriage, women's rights, homosexuality, etc etc etc).Enjoy

There are loonies in every bin.Fortunately for Christians (and the Western world where they dominate) there is at least a moderate Christianity for the vast majority of Christians to believe in.Is this true of Islam?Is there a moderate Islam?If there is, what is it? Where is it?

I have googled.I have watched Muslim community meetings.I have met and interacted with many Muslims from all age ranges; newly immigrated; second, third, or more generation American citizens; with various countries of origin.My experience, personal experience even, with Muslims has been sufficient.The reason I do not go in depth is that were I to list in full detail my encounters and experiences with Islamic followers it may serve to jeopardize my anonymity. But isn't that just it!? They don't have to be dead! Where are all the Muslims in the Westwhere speaking out against ISIS and Middle Eastern Islamic governments is not met with deathshouting down the atrocities? Where are they? Show me the community meetings. Show me the demonstrations in the street; the parades for peace.If they want their voice heard over the voice of ISIS, they are not getting what they want.I want to believe they exist. But I see no evidence so far. If you think I don't understand, then help me understand. Stop pointing to your good buddies who happen to be Muslims. I don't know them. It's no help to me.If it's understanding that is sought, then we can go back to the beginning and try to at least define what is meant by 'moderate Islam'.What is moderate Islam? What differentiates it from the violent Islam practiced by terrorists and Islamic governments in the Middle East?And, especially, where is it?Jon

Sufficient to conclude there are basically no moderates, you must have met millions of the bastards! Please share some details. I don't need enough detail to be able to identify you. Biology is pretty strict about apes who lose their head, or have a bullet destroy significant portions of their brain or other essential organs. Yes, they have to be dead. 1 - they are in the West.
2 - if you think that Muslim extremists don't attempt to control migrant populations with fear and intimidation you are wrong.
3-Just a moment...

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"American Muslims view the actions of ISIS as un-Islamic and morally repugnant. No religion condones the murder of civilians, the beheading of religious scholars or the desecration of houses of worship. We condemn the actions of ISIS and reject its assertion that all Muslims are required to pay allegiance to its leader.

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"CAIR strongly urges American imams and other community leaders to continue to speak out against American Muslims traveling abroad to join extremist groups and sectarian militias. While ISIS uses romanticized imagery in its propaganda materials, its human rights abuses on the ground are well-documented."

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http://www.theislamicmonthly.com/...sis-the-un-islamic-state

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Dear ISIS & Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi,

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You are not The Islamic State.

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There is nothing Islamic about beheading foreign journalists, indiscriminately targeting religious minorities and instilling wanton terror within the general civilian population where your terrorist thugs operate.

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As I mentioned during a July 2012 CNN television interview, you are so crazy that even Al-Qaeda’s leader Ayman Al-Zawahiri has distanced himself from the actions of your terrorist organization.

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Seriously, you know that you’re a bunch of lunatics when even Al-Qaeda says that you are too ‘cray-cray’ for their taste....
For these and many other reasons, the acronym ISIS should stand for Idiotic Sacrilegious Imbecile Society or we can just call them The Un-Islamic State for short.

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iview

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Brothers and sisters, if I could tell you in one sentence about ISIS I would tell you that they are evil, they are corrupt, they are self-seeking, self-centered, vicious people. Don't get mixed up with them."

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Articles In Arab Press In Response To Islamic State's Expulsion, Persecution Of Mosul Christians: These Are Crimes Against Humanity Unprecedented In Iraq's History; Arabs, West Should Do More To Stop Them | MEMRI

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"There is no more accurate description for those who call themselves ISIS... than 'neo-Nazis' or 'neo-Tatars', for they are racist like the Nazis and murderous barbarians like the Tatars. They are harming Islam more than anyone has harmed it in the past 1,400 years, i.e. during the entire history of the Muslims since the beginning of Muhammad's mission in the seventh century

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Maybe your Google is broken? If you've turned it off and on again and that didn't clear it you should order a new one. Yes, I said that already. Christianity's moderates had thousands of years of trying to become the dominant voice before they could claim any degree of success sometime in the late 19th or early 20th Century. You don't help their voice be heard by denying it exists. Then you are a liar, a terrible investigator or you live in Iraq. My point was that finding them is as easy as pie, I know many of them. Of course in your area the demographics might be 1 in 100 people are Muslims whereas in Manchester they are sixteen times more frequent than that. Apparently you've met lots of Muslims yourself though - not moderates? That's how I started this thread. You said 'that's all well and good' and said something about 'liberating women'. Feel free to add your thoughts to what makes a Muslim a moderate. It isn't violent or practiced by terrorists? I mean you said the answer right in your question.A moderate Muslim, like moderate Christians do not believe faith should be forced upon others and we should learn to live with people of different religions rather than fighting or coercing them. How can you have searched for moderate Muslims without having a working definition to use? Obviously you had one - please reveal it.