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Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
djufo
Member (Idle past 1708 days)
Posts: 55
From: FL
Joined: 10-02-2014


Message 106 of 2241 (738086)
10-04-2014 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by NoNukes
10-04-2014 5:36 PM


Re: All in the same boat
Absolutely. I am not going to name them all because it would take me hours but for example the Aztecs main Deity was Quetzalcoatl, which was the same God know to the Mayans as Kukulkan. The "plummed serpent" God. The same God was know to the Incas as Viracocha. In the three civilizations the story is the same. This God comes here, creates their cities, teaches them writing, language, mathematics, farming, instruct them to dig gold for him, then leaves with the promise of returning some day. In the middle east, the ancient civilizations tells us the story of the God who traveled to the American continent to raise new civilizations of humans to dig the needed gold. His name, Ningishizidda. And expert in spiritual manipulation. With the power of reincarnation, resurrection, and known to be able to walk on water. The same God known at Toth for the Egiptians, responsible for planning Pyramids. Hence Pyramids in America, Egypt and other sites of the world.

That is the example of just one of them. One God from the Pantheon ruling earth in those days.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by NoNukes, posted 10-04-2014 5:36 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
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djufo
Member (Idle past 1708 days)
Posts: 55
From: FL
Joined: 10-02-2014


Message 107 of 2241 (738087)
10-04-2014 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by NoNukes
10-04-2014 5:36 PM


Re: All in the same boat
I'm sorry forgot to mention this relates to the topic of the bible, because many raise the point that the bible might be science fiction. Just fantastic stories written thousands of years ago. But the fact that multiple ancient civilizations around the world tell you the same stories. Creation, flood, people coming from the heavens, pyramids, is no coincidence. Specially when they talk about the same beings.

Modern bible is based on all those writings. Even the Bible has multiple Deities. At the very beginning it starts with "let US create humans in OUR image, after OUR own likeness" They were Elohim (plural for God) Singular for God is Eloha.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by NoNukes, posted 10-04-2014 5:36 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2074
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 108 of 2241 (738123)
10-05-2014 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by djufo
10-04-2014 5:57 PM


Re: All in the same boat
Boy, you're going to be called a hero by AiG and CMI. Ask them to publish you letters about all those Gods!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 5:57 PM djufo has not yet responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2074
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 109 of 2241 (738125)
10-05-2014 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by PaulGL
05-30-2013 11:08 AM


Why do so many religious people want to be e-mailed to try and provide answers?

Do it in where everyone else can see and evaluate.


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Percy
Member
Posts: 18842
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 110 of 2241 (738150)
10-05-2014 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by djufo
10-04-2014 3:21 PM


Re: All in the same boat
djufo writes:

The mayans depicted the same deities depicted in mesopotamia, as the ones in ancient India and Peru.

You didn't really answer the question posed by NoNukes in Message 105: "Which deities are the same?" We're not so much interested in similarities between gods in different South American civilizations as between those in South America versus those in the Middle East and India. I'm particularly interested in this claim:

What technology they used to communicate and create this story to later confuse humans? thats a total mystery.

But it turns out you have no evidence that the Mayans and Aztecs had deities similar to the Sumerians, so there's no reason to think they were in communication, particularly since the Sumerians predate the Mayans by a bit, and the Aztecs by a lot.

I'm curious why you think ancient writings by people like the Sumerians are so accurate if they thought there were many gods instead of only one true God.

--Percy


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Percy
Member
Posts: 18842
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 111 of 2241 (738153)
10-05-2014 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by djufo
10-04-2014 5:50 PM


Re: All in the same boat
djufo writes:

In the middle east, the ancient civilizations tells us the story of the God who traveled to the American continent to raise new civilizations of humans to dig the needed gold. His name, Ningishizidda.

Wikipedia says Ningishzida was the Sumerian god of the underworld and doesn't mention any journey to America. What evidence do you have that such a god ever existed or that he did what you claim?

And expert in spiritual manipulation. With the power of reincarnation, resurrection, and known to be able to walk on water.

Once you've provided evidence of the existence of the god Ningishzida, could you then provide evidence that he had these powers?

Isn't the existence of Ningishzida contrary to the Christian view of one God?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 5:50 PM djufo has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 112 of 2241 (738157)
10-05-2014 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by djufo
10-04-2014 5:50 PM


Re: All in the same boat
Quetzalcoatl, which was the same God know to the Mayans as Kukulkan. The "plummed serpent" God. The same God was know to the Incas as Viracocha.

Thanks for your detailed answer. Hopefully this demonstrates that you are not just flitting about. And there is no need for a post naming all o the similarities. I'd prefer that you just present your best case examples. If these were not the best, feel free to give others.

If these are the best examples, I have to point out that I'm having some issues with identifying the three as being the same. Quetzalcoatl and Kukulkan were some kind of plumed serpents, yes, But Viracocha was apparently human-like in appearance. Further, the link and similarities between Quetzalcoatl and Kukulkan do not appear to be any more mysterious and needing of explanation than do the similarities between Zeus and Jupiter.

On the other hand, the God in the Bible is not described as teaching technology and arts, or creating cities. He is described as destroying all of those things once.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 5:50 PM djufo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 113 of 2241 (738160)
10-05-2014 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by NoNukes
10-05-2014 12:35 PM


Re: All in the same boat
On the other hand, the God in the Bible is not described as teaching technology and arts, or creating cities. He is described as destroying all of those things once.

Actually in the Bible the God is described as destroying cities far more than just once. It seems to have been a pretty common form of entertainment with lots of options; floods, shakes, frogs. fire from the sky, kill off the kids and cattle, turn water into blood, send locusts ...


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by NoNukes, posted 10-05-2014 12:35 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17276
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 114 of 2241 (738163)
10-05-2014 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by djufo
10-04-2014 3:21 PM


Re: All in the same boat
djufo writes:

The mayans depicted the same deities depicted in mesopotamia, as the ones in ancient India and Peru.


Similar is not the same as "the same". There are similarities between myths around the world but there are also great differences.

djufo writes:

Also based on your logic, why should we believe that Washington and the founding fathers really existed?


There is a variety of evidence that George Washington et al. existed. Volumes were written about them during their own lifetimes and shortly after by people who actually knew them. No single piece of evidence is conclusive but the body of evidence is persuasive.

djufo writes:

just because everybody believes the story means is truth and I am forced to believe it too?


That seems to be your logic, that the gods "must" be real because people all over the world believed in them.

djufo writes:

Bottom line, why in the world ancients civilizations would base their existence in writing our origins the best they could to pass it onto us other than the truth?


The bottom line is that they didn't know "the truth". They only knew what they believed to be true. That's why beliefs all around the world are different, because nobody knows "the truth".
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12787
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 115 of 2241 (738168)
10-05-2014 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by ringo
10-05-2014 2:11 PM


Re: All in the same boat
They only knew what they believed to be true. That's why beliefs all around the world are different, because nobody knows "the truth".
We dont know that for sure. All that we know is that not everybody knows what everybody else knows(or doesnt know.) Its quite a blanket assertion to declare that--just because we don't know the truth that nobody does.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by ringo, posted 10-05-2014 2:11 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by ringo, posted 10-05-2014 3:54 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
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ringo
Member
Posts: 17276
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 116 of 2241 (738169)
10-05-2014 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Thugpreacha
10-05-2014 3:52 PM


Re: All in the same boat
Phat writes:

Its quite a blanket assertion to declare that--just because we don't know the truth that nobody does.


If somebody else knew "the truth", how would you know they knew? If you could know that what they know is "the truth", wouldn't you know "the truth" too?
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jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 117 of 2241 (738170)
10-05-2014 3:56 PM


Inerrant?
You would think that if the Bible actually was the inerrant word of God there would at least be one universal list of what books would be included.

Edited by jar, : fix subtitle


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 118 of 2241 (738177)
10-05-2014 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Thugpreacha
10-05-2014 3:52 PM


Re: All in the same boat
Its quite a blanket assertion to declare that--just because we don't know the truth that nobody does.

I agree that if we used "We don't know" so "nobody knows" that we would be using bad logic. But it is just your unfounded notion that we are using that bad argument.

We could instead note that everybody who gains an understanding about the origin of the universe through their religion has done so through belief. Thus they don't actually know regardless of the strength of their conviction. I am quite comfortable with generalizing in such a way.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-05-2014 3:52 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3838
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 119 of 2241 (738249)
10-07-2014 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by djufo
10-04-2014 11:25 AM


Re: All in the same boat
djufo writes:

The ancient texts were never written in "belief". The were written in knowledge of what was going on in those days which by the way, were bizarre times. Unimaginable and incomprehensible for the vast majority of average mortals. Hence the "disbelief"

It really doesn't matter how they were written.
The facts of reality show that what was written (regardless of how) is wrong. The Bible doesn't make the smallest degree of difference for human prosperity when viewed across the groups of people it affects.

There's simply no difference between bible believers and atheists when looked at as entire groups.

Both groups include some people that are very happy, and others that are very sad.
Neither group is obviously happier or sadder than the other... they're just both human.
Both groups include some people that are spiritually enlightened, and others that are spiritually empty.
Neither group is obviously more or less spiritually enlightened than the other... they're just both human.
Both groups include rich people and poor people.
Neither group is obviously richer or poorer than the other... they're just both human.
Both groups include smart people and dumb people.
Neither group is obviously smarter or dumber than the other... they're just both human.

Even if the bible was written with knowledge... it doesn't matter, it was wrong.
The facts are undeniable.
The facts stare us all in the face every day.
The Bible does not help all humans have a better life.
The Bible will help a few humans have a better life.
Atheism does not help all humans have a better life.
Atheism will help a few humans have a better life.
We are all human, we all must find our way.

For some, that way will be the Bible... those people should follow the Bible. Those people should not try to convince others to follow the Bible, because it is a fact that the Bible does not work for everyone.

For some, that way will be atheism... those people should be atheists. Those people should not try to convince others to become atheists, because it is a fact that atheism does not work for everyone.

For some, that way will be something else... those people should figure out what that thing is and stick with it. Those people should not try to convince others to do the same thing, because whatever it is... it is a fact that it will not work for everyone.

People are different.
We are all human.
Find your thing, stick with it.
Stop trying to convince others that 'your thing' is somehow the best and works for everyone.
It isn't, and it doesn't.
If you're unhappy... change your thing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 11:25 AM djufo has not yet responded

    
djufo
Member (Idle past 1708 days)
Posts: 55
From: FL
Joined: 10-02-2014


Message 120 of 2241 (738327)
10-08-2014 11:06 PM


Nonukes and Percy, you guys need to know first that I am not a creationist, nor an evolutionist. Both "radical extremes" are wrong. The theory of human evolution is just a cheap joke, absolutely gross at its best. The mainstream "creationist" view based on christian religion is wrong too. I was of course raised in a culture of an almighty omnipotent God that nobody ever tells you who he is or was, where he came from, why we created us. Basically the popular "notion" is that God is a powerful light sitting on top of a white cloud with a magic wand creating universes and humans because he doesn't have anything else to do in life.

Christianity monoteist was invented by constantine in the 5th century AD. There were before christian pagans, unorganized and prosecuted. But as their numbers grew, constantine saw the opportunity to organize this pagan religion, make it the official religion of the empire and therefore have absolute power. Virtually the representative of God on earth. The Roman empire confiscated all the documents available at that time, and through multiple councils, they decided what texts where going to be used and which were not. At their own convenience. They eliminated politeism, and forced everybody to worship only one. They left outside for example The book of Enoch. I invite everybody to read the translation. The book of Enoch not only confirms the writing of other biblical texts, but it goes deeper in extreme detail about the bizarre events happening on earth in those days.

Going back to topic, yes, the deity for Mayans and Aztec is more like a plummed serpent while for Incas is more like a human looking. Well, all these Gods are human looking. They look just like us. That's why the bible starts saying "let us create humans in our image after our own likeness" According to ancient civilizations, these beings are white skin, long white hair and beards. The "plummed serpent" name, of course sounds mythical and fictional. But remember one thing. If these beings really existed, and were traveling from one continent to other, and from earth to orbit back and forth, they HAVE to be wearing some sort of special suits and helmets that is inconceivable for us to understand or imagine. Now imagine a 2,000-3,000 year old human how ion the world would understand, even worst explain what he was seeing. An ancient human will try to exemplify it with the closest thing known to him. In this case, a serpent head with a plummed body.

Percy, yes all the ancient texts contradict the belief of modern Christian religion for the same reason stated before that Christian religion was an invention by man. It is not the truth. Or at least, not the whole clear picture. Just part of it is used and by the way was imposed by the sword to create some sort of control on the society and power for authorities.


Replies to this message:
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