Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 66 (9049 total)
90 online now:
AZPaul3, jar, PaulK, Phat (AdminPhat) (4 members, 86 visitors)
Newest Member: Wes johnson
Upcoming Birthdays: Coragyps
Post Volume: Total: 887,675 Year: 5,321/14,102 Month: 242/677 Week: 47/54 Day: 0/4 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 196 of 2241 (738490)
10-11-2014 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Faith
10-10-2014 11:18 PM


Re: 3 in one
There's no reason they would be looking for it.

Wrong. There was ample motivation.

Even if they were looking for it, it would have to be there in order to find it, and it most definitely is there, but it's too

Bible codes are in there too, along with just about any amount of numerological nonsense you might imagine. Some of that numerology is the subject matter of the sermons jack legs bellow to their congregations on Sundays.

They could just as easily all have become Arians if it wasn't in scripture.

No they couldn't do that. Their doctrine required that Arians were heretics.

Your entire post is just revisionist nonsense. The fact of the matter is that the exact relationship between Yahweh and Jesus is anything but clear from reading the Bible because the relationship is express in multiple, and inconsistent ways. Even if the Divinity of Jesus Christ an absolute requirement, there are many possible relationships Christ might have to the God of the Old Testament. It's also possible that the relationship varied over time.

But of course it is not possible that all of those various answers is completely and exclusively correct. It may in fact be the case that none of the answer people have gravitated towards are correct. What's clear is that during the early years of Christianity, people whose desire to follow Christ is beyond any question favored different approaches. Each of those factions would have the strongest and purest possible motives to justify their interpretation using scripture.

Nobody is denying the earnestness of the Trinitarians but it should not be doubted that the Arians were earnest and loved Jesus Christ with equal fervor.

Today we have doctrines like Unitarianism and Oneness that are essentially equally supportable from the Bible text. Proponents of each doctrine are sure that the others are in danger of missing salvation.

You are getting the order of things backwards.

Yikes.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Faith, posted 10-10-2014 11:18 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Phat, posted 10-11-2014 11:56 AM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 219 by Faith, posted 10-11-2014 2:33 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 197 of 2241 (738492)
10-11-2014 3:37 AM


I feel like pleading with you both to rethink what you are saying because it's scary you could think such a conspiracy could be the history of the Church, it's like seeing people turn reality inside out and backwards, and of course you think that's what I'm doing. This is really depressing.

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by jar, posted 10-11-2014 9:32 AM Faith has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20334
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 198 of 2241 (738494)
10-11-2014 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Faith
10-10-2014 9:16 PM


Re: 3 in one
Faith writes:

Of course there's nothing I can say to someone who calls it all a book of myths when I know it's not. Some things can't be proved.

Yes, some things have to be accepted on faith.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Faith, posted 10-10-2014 9:16 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Percy, posted 10-11-2014 9:29 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 211 by Faith, posted 10-11-2014 2:12 PM Percy has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20334
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 199 of 2241 (738496)
10-11-2014 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Percy
10-11-2014 7:29 AM


Re: 3 in one
Percy writes:

Yes, some things have to be accepted on faith.

Let me revise that.

Yes, some things can only be accepted on faith, but if they have no evidence there's no reason to accept them at all.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Percy, posted 10-11-2014 7:29 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Phat, posted 10-11-2014 12:04 PM Percy has responded
 Message 212 by Faith, posted 10-11-2014 2:13 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33445
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 200 of 2241 (738497)
10-11-2014 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Faith
10-11-2014 3:37 AM


I feel like pleading with you both to rethink what you are saying because it's scary you could think such a conspiracy could be the history of the Church, it's like seeing people turn reality inside out and backwards, and of course you think that's what I'm doing.

But the history of the Church is of groups of people deciding what will be accepted as dogma, finding support for that position and then declaring the other side as heretics.

It has happened repeatedly and continues right down to this day.

You have called me a heretic and call the Roman Catholic Church not just heretical but headed by the anti-Christ.

That is a great example.

That is reality and to deny that is just plain silly.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Faith, posted 10-11-2014 3:37 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Faith, posted 10-11-2014 2:19 PM jar has responded
 Message 2241 by Phat, posted 07-20-2016 4:29 PM jar has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19262
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 201 of 2241 (738500)
10-11-2014 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Faith
10-10-2014 1:29 PM


Re: 3 in one
Faith writes:

We are to understand the Bible by the light of the Bible.


Who sez so? The Bible? If you have to assume the truth to conclude the truth, that isn't just circular; it's a maelstrom.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Faith, posted 10-10-2014 1:29 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Phat, posted 10-11-2014 11:58 AM ringo has responded
 Message 214 by Faith, posted 10-11-2014 2:23 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15652
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


(1)
Message 202 of 2241 (738502)
10-11-2014 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by NoNukes
10-11-2014 12:07 AM


Re: 3 in one
NoNukes writes:

What's clear is that during the early years of Christianity, people whose desire to follow Christ is beyond any question favored different approaches. Each of those factions would have the strongest and purest possible motives to justify their interpretation using scripture.

Nobody is denying the earnestness of the Trinitarians but it should not be doubted that the Arians were earnest and loved Jesus Christ with equal fervor.

Today we have doctrines like Unitarianism and Oneness that are essentially equally supportable from the Bible text. Proponents of each doctrine are sure that the others are in danger of missing salvation.

This seems logical. Everyone is convinced that their way is THE way. One question---Is it within human nature to attempt to get everyone else to agree with ourselves on major issues of belief and/or logic, reason, and reality? Do we feel threatened or otherwise uncomfortable with others who disagree with our beliefs? I would say yes....comments?

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by NoNukes, posted 10-11-2014 12:07 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Faith, posted 10-11-2014 2:24 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 227 by Theodoric, posted 10-11-2014 6:57 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15652
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 203 of 2241 (738503)
10-11-2014 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by ringo
10-11-2014 11:41 AM


Re: 3 in one
I think what she means is that in her belief, we (humans) are to understand truth through the light of the truth. Proponents would claim that there is one truth, one light, and one God.

For whatever reason, this God appears to have made you a contrarian who questions not only God but human logic, reason, and belief.

So be it.


...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by ringo, posted 10-11-2014 11:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by ringo, posted 10-11-2014 12:33 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 206 by jar, posted 10-11-2014 12:37 PM Phat has responded
 Message 228 by Theodoric, posted 10-11-2014 7:00 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15652
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 204 of 2241 (738504)
10-11-2014 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Percy
10-11-2014 9:29 AM


Evidence and Belief
Percy writes:

some things can only be accepted on faith, but if they have no evidence there's no reason to accept them at all.

Sounds logical enough. For some, evidence is a prerequisite to faith. Perhaps the question is what constitutes evidence? Is an internal subjective "born again" experience qualified? How about a vision? a dream? For some, a UFO close encounters experience works. For others, simply being around believers who are full of testimonies and who seem different is enough.

Perhaps another qualifier is to ask about our personal bias. Do we want to have evidence to convince us, to change us, or to confirm what we already are comfortable suspecting?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Percy, posted 10-11-2014 9:29 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Faith, posted 10-11-2014 2:26 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 245 by Percy, posted 10-12-2014 8:36 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19262
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 205 of 2241 (738509)
10-11-2014 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Phat
10-11-2014 11:58 AM


Re: 3 in one
Phat writes:

I think what she means is that in her belief, we (humans) are to understand truth through the light of the truth.


That's what I said. And we are to understand oxygen by breathing. It's a lot cheaper than those pesky laboratories.

Phat writes:

Proponents would claim that there is one truth, one light, and one God.


And His name is Allah.

Phat writes:

For whatever reason, this God appears to have made you a contrarian who questions not only God but human logic, reason, and belief.



This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Phat, posted 10-11-2014 11:58 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33445
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 206 of 2241 (738510)
10-11-2014 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Phat
10-11-2014 11:58 AM


Re: 3 in one
For whatever reason, this God appears to have made you a contrarian who questions not only God but human logic, reason, and belief.

Where is the logic and reason when it comes to beliefs like the Trinity? Did you actually look at the diagram you posted?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Phat, posted 10-11-2014 11:58 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Phat, posted 10-11-2014 12:47 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15652
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 207 of 2241 (738512)
10-11-2014 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by jar
10-11-2014 12:37 PM


Re: 3 in one
I briefly glanced at it. Does it look like an M.C. Escher sketch?


...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by jar, posted 10-11-2014 12:37 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by ringo, posted 10-11-2014 1:07 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 209 by jar, posted 10-11-2014 1:13 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 210 by Modulous, posted 10-11-2014 1:35 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 217 by Faith, posted 10-11-2014 2:27 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19262
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 208 of 2241 (738513)
10-11-2014 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Phat
10-11-2014 12:47 PM


Re: 3 in one
Phat writes:

Does it look like an M.C. Escher sketch?


It's a pyramid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Phat, posted 10-11-2014 12:47 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33445
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 209 of 2241 (738515)
10-11-2014 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Phat
10-11-2014 12:47 PM


Re: 3 in one
It is certainly not reasonable or logical or even very revealing.

Try substituting colors. Start with Red is red.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Phat, posted 10-11-2014 12:47 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 1130 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 210 of 2241 (738516)
10-11-2014 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Phat
10-11-2014 12:47 PM


A = G AND B = G AND C = G AND A ≠ B AND A ≠ C AND B ≠ C

is false.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Phat, posted 10-11-2014 12:47 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021