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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5062
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 316 of 2058 (738167)
10-05-2014 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by Pressie
10-05-2014 8:01 AM


Re: Gish Gollop
Why do creationists always do the Gish Gallop?

Same reason why, every time the yellow-eyed bully and his cohorts would attack, Ralphie's little brother would just drop down and lie in the snow: it was his only defense.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 637 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 317 of 2058 (738182)
10-05-2014 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by Dr Adequate
10-04-2014 11:53 PM


Re: Try again? and again?
IIRC, the orientation of the heads is based on where the spine attaches, so they would be in their natural positions. This is one of the things that differentiates chimps from hominidae.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 637 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 318 of 2058 (738186)
10-05-2014 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by djufo
10-04-2014 10:51 PM


ancestors
... And I'm gonna point one detail to you. In that picture of monkey heads, ...

There were no monkey heads in that picture, they are all apes.

Your failure to correct this blatant error is indicative of inability to recognize errors on your part.

... WHY IN THE WORLD, ALL the heads except the last 2, are tilted forward??? ...

My first impression is that they are all arranged in their natural attitude. If you look at a chimp today you will see the head is at that attitude.

... Who are you trying to fool with that cheap trick. Do you really think the majority of the people is that stupid? Why the last one (Sapiens) is perfectly resting in an horizontal position, while ALL the previous ones are tilted forward. Look at the jaw bone line. Look at the back of the head. Well, here's the reason why: Because if you let them rest in its natural position, THEY DONT LOOK AT ALL LIKE US. ...

Except that they do -- it doesn't really matter what the attitude of the frontal pictures are when you look at side views, and you can see the similarities from the side views regardless of orientation.

... But somehow they have to find a cheap way to justify their jobs, and satisfy the demand of those on top to brainwash people. Those ugly monkeys in the pictures barely have a forehead. They HAVE to tilt them forward to make them look somewhat a little similar to an homo sapiens and create an optical illusion of a transition. ...

It is amusing that you are so offended by the actual natural history of humans.

... It is unbelievable the level of desperation these people reach to try to make that stupid theory work. ...

Yep pictures of actual fossils are so deceptive ...

Seems to me that you are desperately seeking things to hang your biased beliefs on. Denial of the evidence does not make it go away, nor does it alter the evidence in any way.

... Even an idiot can see it!

lol -- I have to agree with Dr A.

Can you tell me which of these skeletons are human?

The only alteration is to scale them to the same height from knees to shoulders ...

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 637 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 319 of 2058 (738217)
10-06-2014 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by djufo
10-04-2014 3:37 PM


different chromosome numbers -- what do they mean?
Thank you Dr. Those are the answers we always get from "the experts" The fact that 2 chromosomes fused happened because 2 chromosomes fused, happened because they were fused. In nature that does not happen. Simple as it sounds. If it happens, show it and prove it.

To add to the information provided by Dr A, see Message 251 and additional information is provided by mules and zebroids

quote:
Donkeys and wild equids have different numbers of chromosomes. A donkey has 62 chromosomes; the zebra has between 32 and 46 (depending on species). In spite of this difference, viable hybrids are possible, provided the gene combination in the hybrid allows for embryonic development to birth. A hybrid has a number of chromosomes somewhere in between. The chromosome difference makes female hybrids poorly fertile and male hybrids generally sterile due to a phenomenon called Haldane's Rule. The difference in chromosome number is most likely due to horses having two longer chromosomes that contain similar gene content to four zebra chromosomes.[4] Horses have 64 chromosomes, while most zebroids end up with 54 chromosomes.

Mules generally have 63 chromosomes, between the 62 for the donkey and 64 for the horse.

Interbreeding shows relatedness, while chromosome differences show divergence from their ancestral common ancestor population.

The issue for reproductive success is not the number of chromosomes, but the arrangement of the genes on them. Combining or breaking chromosomes does not change the number of genes, it does affect the alignment of them during the combination of egg and sperm into a zygote. Chromosomes are the vehicle that helps facilitate reproduction within a breeding population by aligning the genes.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : links

Edited by RAZD, : ...


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


(1)
Message 320 of 2058 (738247)
10-07-2014 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by djufo
10-04-2014 12:42 PM


All this ranting about geeks and nerds.

Did they bully you at school or something?


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


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djufo
Member (Idle past 2686 days)
Posts: 55
From: FL
Joined: 10-02-2014


Message 321 of 2058 (738391)
10-09-2014 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by Larni
10-07-2014 8:59 AM


Quite the opposite. And I still do.

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7309
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 322 of 2058 (738394)
10-09-2014 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by djufo
10-09-2014 6:37 PM


Proud of being a bully? You are offensive too.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
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djufo
Member (Idle past 2686 days)
Posts: 55
From: FL
Joined: 10-02-2014


Message 323 of 2058 (738582)
10-12-2014 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by Theodoric
10-09-2014 7:23 PM


Pride is an emotion that would be the subject of study on a different thread. To be honest, I do not consider myself offensive. However, I do put an effort in exposing stupidity and arrogance through a process of logic and reason that is undeniable. And one of the reasons for that effort is that we live under a system of "belief" Either religion or science. In the case of science, we are forced conventionally to "believe" what "experts" say when in reality is all speculations. Day by day they are re-writing what they know because they keep discovering new things. It is an infantile behavior in which thy start from the base that they are the maximum expression of evolution in the universe. They know everything. Nobody before them could know more than them, and nobody in any part of the universe can know more than they do. Therefore, every time they discover something new, it has to be rewritten. Nobody can criticize that behavior because we all "believe" they have the supreme truth and the last word. In reality they are a bunch of retards, nerds and geeks who deduce some sort of sexual pleasure mating monkeys with humans.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 324 of 2058 (738584)
10-12-2014 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by djufo
10-12-2014 3:01 PM


Pride is an emotion that would be the subject of study on a different thread. To be honest, I do not consider myself offensive. However, I do put an effort in exposing stupidity and arrogance through a process of logic and reason that is undeniable. And one of the reasons for that effort is that we live under a system of "belief" Either religion or science. In the case of science, we are forced conventionally to "believe" what "experts" say when in reality is all speculations. Day by day they are re-writing what they know because they keep discovering new things. It is an infantile behavior in which thy start from the base that they are the maximum expression of evolution in the universe. They know everything. Nobody before them could know more than them, and nobody in any part of the universe can know more than they do. Therefore, every time they discover something new, it has to be rewritten. Nobody can criticize that behavior because we all "believe" they have the supreme truth and the last word. In reality they are a bunch of retards, nerds and geeks who deduce some sort of sexual pleasure mating monkeys with humans.

Is this intended to be an example of "logic and reason that is undeniable"? Only it looks like a pitiable confection of lies, gibberish, and self-serving fantasy.


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Modulous
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(2)
Message 325 of 2058 (738588)
10-12-2014 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by djufo
10-12-2014 3:01 PM


It is an infantile behavior in which thy start from the base that they are the maximum expression of evolution in the universe.

Hrm, scala naturae, you must be talking about priests, right?

They know everything. Nobody before them could know more than them, and nobody in any part of the universe can know more than they do.

Oh sorry, it's gods.

Therefore, every time they discover something new, it has to be rewritten.

Hmm, could be either one, I'm going with priests.

Nobody can criticize that behavior because we all "believe" they have the supreme truth and the last word.

My mistake, you are definitely talking about gods.

In reality they are a bunch of retards, nerds and geeks who deduce some sort of sexual pleasure mating monkeys with humans.

Oh, OK that changes everything. You are talking about Catholic theologians! I should have seen it from the start!


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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 326 of 2058 (738608)
10-12-2014 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by djufo
10-12-2014 3:01 PM


In the case of science, we are forced conventionally to "believe" what "experts" say when in reality is all speculations.

One of the things that's always fascinated me about physics was the amount of stuff that individuals can actually verify for themselves. Perhaps if you weren't recommending reading anonymous ancient writings over stuff we can actually check on our own, you might be able to generate more credibility.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


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vimesey
Member
Posts: 1306
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


(6)
Message 327 of 2058 (738615)
10-13-2014 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by djufo
10-12-2014 3:01 PM


In reality they are a bunch of retards, nerds and geeks who deduce some sort of sexual pleasure mating monkeys with humans.

You're forgetting the other half of the usual anti-science rant. You forgot to argue that scientists have split personalities - that they're absolutely brilliant when it comes to creating sat-navs, building brain scanners, constantly creating new medicines and treatments, firing rockets into space, inventing computers, learning to warn against tsunamis, predicting where to find oil, working out those pesky sub-atomic particles, and loads more stuff which is frankly indispensible in modern society, and which works fantastically well - but that they only become these "retards" when they say something which goes against your beliefs.

I reckon it's something they put in the water at university.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

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Percy
Member
Posts: 20749
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


(4)
Message 328 of 2058 (738622)
10-13-2014 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by djufo
10-12-2014 3:01 PM


Hi Djufo,

How do you reconcile this:

To be honest, I do not consider myself offensive.

With this:

In reality they are a bunch of retards, nerds and geeks who deduce some sort of sexual pleasure mating monkeys with humans.

Any time you decide to begin introducing evidence for any of your outlandish claims, we're ready.

--Percy


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Colbard
Member (Idle past 2623 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 329 of 2058 (739539)
10-24-2014 9:39 PM


How to teach Evolution
The Theory of Evolution.

A Theory is an educated guess and Evolution is a term of observation, "we watched the play evolve." We don't know the plot so we make an educated guess about what is happening.

So the T of E is
"the guessing of guessing"
We guess when we don't know, so guessing is a sign of ignorance /not knowing.

So the T of E is
"Not knowing what is not known"

Where should we begin in such a study?


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Coyote
Member (Idle past 1338 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 330 of 2058 (739544)
10-24-2014 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 329 by Colbard
10-24-2014 9:39 PM


Re: How to teach Evolution
We should begin by rejecting anything creationists tell us, as creationists are 180° anti-science.

So, why should we listen to them at all?

They have no evidence, just apologetics.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


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