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Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 301 of 2241 (738674)
10-14-2014 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 298 by Phat
10-14-2014 6:27 AM


Re: Are you sure you're mainstream?
Phat writes:
Percy,talking to Faith writes:
Are you sure you're mainstream?
This brings up an interesting question. As a Christian, I will share what I consider to be important doctrines.
I was just poking fun at Faith's contradictory statement that the largest Christian church is out of the mainstream. Her tail is wagging her dog.
Phat writes:
We disagree on whether evidence should be the main measure of belief and faith.
Speaking just for myself, I don't think faith should be based upon evidence. I think ideas about the real world should be based upon evidence, and ideas about the spiritual world should be based upon faith.
And finally...it it not important whether or not the Bible is word for word literal.
But it *is* important whether the Bible is literally and inerrantly true. If it truly has these qualities then its importance and significance is transcendent. It would mean that all other religions *and* science are wrong. But all the evidence from both within and without the Bible says that it is neither literally inerrant nor the word of God, whose existence in some recognizably Christian form hasn't been established anyway.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Phat, posted 10-14-2014 6:27 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Faith, posted 10-14-2014 1:58 PM Percy has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 302 of 2241 (738678)
10-14-2014 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by Percy
10-14-2014 7:06 AM


Re: Review of the False Church of Rome
You can't base arguments upon myths and legends.
Shit, Darth Vader could totally kick Godzilla's ass.
With Midi-chlorian levels that high, even if he couldn't just force throw him back into the ocean, he could at least force choke the atomic breath out of him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Percy, posted 10-14-2014 7:06 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 303 of 2241 (738679)
10-14-2014 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 298 by Phat
10-14-2014 6:27 AM


Re: Are you sure you're mainstream?
Mainstream, by my definition, is other people whom I would feel in communion with on a spiritual level.
That is simply not what "Mainstream" means.
Its the thing that has the most people involved in it, like the main stream is the one with the most water in it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Phat, posted 10-14-2014 6:27 AM Phat has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 304 of 2241 (738682)
10-14-2014 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by Tangle
10-14-2014 6:42 AM


Re: Review of the False Church of Rome
All the members of which - just like you - claiming the one they happen to be attached to is the correct one.
That's really not what all of us believe. Yes there are some central tenets of Christianity, but there is a large amount of agreement on those particular issues. When cornered, Faith readily admits to that, with the exception of insisting that Catholics get it all wrong. Most of the 'order of service' you find practiced in Churches is based on tradition and custom. Those kinds of things are the largest difference between churches.
It is true that belief in the Triune nature of God is the mainstream belief. But that doctrine is generally not what any Christian would tell you is necessary to believe in order to be saved. It is however a reason for fundamentalists to tell you the fear for your immortal soul regardless of what they told you about salvation.
Not even the Pope insists that only Catholics worship Jesus correctly. Faith and may others do of course does make the claim that only their versions of Christianity can be correct. Many other Christians acknowledge that very few tenets are essential to Christianity whatever it is that they themselves prefer.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Tangle, posted 10-14-2014 6:42 AM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 305 of 2241 (738683)
10-14-2014 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Faith
10-11-2014 2:23 PM


Re: 3 in one
Faith writes:
It is a standard rule of Biblical exegesis to interpret Bible by Bible because you risk developing a false theology based on partial concepts taken out of context if you don't.
The problem is that your theology implodes if it is nothing but self-reference. You could build such a theology on any book.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Faith, posted 10-11-2014 2:23 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 306 of 2241 (738684)
10-14-2014 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by Percy
10-14-2014 7:06 AM


Re: Review of the False Church of Rome
The points you're trying to make about Catholicism and the Trinity and other things are underlain by a work of fiction, and speaking just for myself there is no interest in arguments based upon fiction. You can't base arguments upon myths and legends. But NoNukes seems willing to accept the authority of the Bible for the sake of discussion.
Perhaps this kind of discussion does not belong this particular forum. But haven't we had past discussions where we've looked at inconsistencies in the Bible?
In any event, I think I should be allowed to address an argument at my chosen point. I am not the only person here who points out that Faith cannot or at least has not made a case of any kind.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Percy, posted 10-14-2014 7:06 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Percy, posted 10-14-2014 12:17 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 307 of 2241 (738691)
10-14-2014 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by NoNukes
10-14-2014 11:45 AM


Re: Review of the False Church of Rome
Not sure what you thought I was saying. My occasional comments about topic are more just marveling at Faith's attitude that the rules don't apply to her. Judging us hopeless regarding the topic, she feels free to introduce whatever other topics she likes.
I'm not moderating the thread. Adminemooseus stepped in briefly over the weekend to issue a caution about content-free posts, which was needed, but there's no on-topic discussion being interfered with, so the off-topic discussion doesn't seem to be causing any problems.
My main intent was just to let Faith know that even though I'm not interested in discussing Bible-based arguments that you did seem interested.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by NoNukes, posted 10-14-2014 11:45 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by NoNukes, posted 10-14-2014 2:22 PM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 308 of 2241 (738695)
10-14-2014 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by New Cat's Eye
10-13-2014 8:10 PM


Re: Review of the False Church of Rome
What's wrong with tracing the mainstream through the doctrinal history?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-13-2014 8:10 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-14-2014 1:29 PM Faith has replied
 Message 321 by jar, posted 10-14-2014 2:32 PM Faith has replied
 Message 326 by Phat, posted 10-14-2014 4:51 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 309 of 2241 (738696)
10-14-2014 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by Tangle
10-14-2014 6:42 AM


Re: Review of the False Church of Rome
It's amazing that I can show by comparison with scripture that the Roman Church isn't Christian and that doesn't mean anything to anybody.
But the vast majority of those "sects" differ only in very small points that don't put them outside the Christian camp.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Tangle, posted 10-14-2014 6:42 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by Tangle, posted 10-14-2014 2:02 PM Faith has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 310 of 2241 (738698)
10-14-2014 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by Faith
10-14-2014 1:24 PM


Re: Review of the False Church of Rome
What's wrong with tracing the mainstream through the doctrinal history?
Mainstream means "most popular".
What you are calling mainstream is not the most popular.
So how are you measuring it as being the mainstream?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Faith, posted 10-14-2014 1:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by Faith, posted 10-14-2014 1:36 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 311 of 2241 (738699)
10-14-2014 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by Percy
10-14-2014 7:06 AM


Re: Review of the False Church of Rome
Unbelievable that you think jar said anything that needs to be answered.
And of course to call the Bible fiction puts you so far out of reality there's no point in talking to you at all, I don't know why I try. Even most atheists don't deny that there is some historical truth in the Bible. But you go to a "Christian" church and you deny the only foundation there is for Christianity? Mindboggling stuff here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Percy, posted 10-14-2014 7:06 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by Percy, posted 10-14-2014 2:09 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 312 of 2241 (738700)
10-14-2014 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by New Cat's Eye
10-14-2014 1:29 PM


Re: Review of the False Church of Rome
Mainstream SHOULD mean most orthodox or most true to the teachings of the Bible, even if that stream dies down to a trickle. But prophetically we're expecting "Christianity" to get very huge and popular with nothing but lies and false doctrines, so I guess that's what this is.

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 Message 310 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-14-2014 1:29 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by Percy, posted 10-14-2014 2:22 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 313 of 2241 (738702)
10-14-2014 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by Percy
10-14-2014 7:23 AM


Re: Are you sure you're mainstream?
I was just poking fun at Faith's contradictory statement that the largest Christian church is out of the mainstream. Her tail is wagging her dog.
Even though the majority of its doctrines and practices are clearly anything but Christian and I showed that, you are still going to insist that it's "the largest Christian church." This is really amazing.
Speaking just for myself, I don't think faith should be based upon evidence. I think ideas about the real world should be based upon evidence, and ideas about the spiritual world should be based upon faith.
Oddly this is a popular view, which makes absolutely no sense at all. You cannot have genuine faith in anything you don't believe to be true, which means you have to have some evidence to believe it. That is human nature.
But it *is* important whether the Bible is literally and inerrantly true. If it truly has these qualities then its importance and significance is transcendent. It would mean that all other religions *and* science are wrong. But all the evidence from both within and without the Bible says that it is neither literally inerrant nor the word of God, whose existence in some recognizably Christian form hasn't been established anyway.
Well, it's spiritually discerned, which I guess is the only explanation for your inability to recognize it in the end. One would think that a little respect for the history of Christianity might still be felt even by unbelievers in the western world, but perhaps you are ignorant of the history as you obviously are of the Bible itself. The greatest minds of the west made up the early church and have drawn inspiration from the Bible down the centuries. Believing it as God's word. Millions died for the truth of the Bible, for its being the word of God, under the Inquisition. It's obviously possible to believe a total lie, though, and give your life to it, as Muslims do. I think the only way to know the difference would be to know a lot of history. (Muslims die for their "faith" by committing violence and murder, though. I wonder how they'd do faith-wise being slaughtered as Christians always have been. My guess would be their "faith" would evaporate in a flash. As a matter of fact it is a tenet of Islam that it's good to lie to your enemies, so you could take back your "faith" and save your life and then resume your "faith." A Christian must die for his faith, not save his life but give it for Christ. Big difference there.)
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Percy, posted 10-14-2014 7:23 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by NoNukes, posted 10-14-2014 2:58 PM Faith has replied
 Message 323 by Percy, posted 10-14-2014 3:00 PM Faith has replied
 Message 324 by NoNukes, posted 10-14-2014 3:16 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 325 by Modulous, posted 10-14-2014 4:10 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 314 of 2241 (738703)
10-14-2014 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by Faith
10-14-2014 1:25 PM


Re: Review of the False Church of Rome
Faith writes:
It's amazing that I can show by comparison with scripture that the Roman Church isn't Christian and that doesn't mean anything to anybody.
There's so much wrong with that sentence that I can't even start explaining why it's nonsense from the first syllable to the last.
You realise that you are trying to explain to me why black is, in fact, white - I just need to believe your version of a mythological tale for it to be true?
Catholics aren't Christians. Pfffnrrr. You'll be telling me that my arse doesn't hold up my pants next.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Faith, posted 10-14-2014 1:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Faith, posted 10-14-2014 2:05 PM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 315 of 2241 (738704)
10-14-2014 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by Tangle
10-14-2014 2:02 PM


Re: Review of the False Church of Rome
I SHOWED that the beliefs of the RCC contradict Christianity. Obviously that means nothing to you. Also I did not say that "Catholics" aren't Christians. Some of them may be if they grew up with the simple gospel as some apparently do. I'm talking about the institution they belong to, which they should leave if they are Christians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Tangle, posted 10-14-2014 2:02 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by Tangle, posted 10-14-2014 4:57 PM Faith has replied

  
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