Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 85 (8937 total)
29 online now:
jar, ooh-child, PaulK, RAZD, ringo, Theodoric (6 members, 23 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: ssope
Post Volume: Total: 861,849 Year: 16,885/19,786 Month: 1,010/2,598 Week: 256/251 Day: 27/58 Hour: 1/12


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Claims of God Being Omnipotent in the Bible
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12807
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 338 of 381 (738988)
10-19-2014 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 337 by ringo
10-18-2014 12:36 PM


Re: Unable to meet God due to detached observer status
It seems to me that you believe that IF GOD exists, humans are meant to grow up into a life where we have no need of Him and whereby we can use our own intelligence to solve our problems.

I disagree with this scenario. Even adults whose parents are still living go to them for advice, encouragement and feedback. At worst, I believe that God desires that we talk with Him often and that we ask Him to forgive our sins and give us wisdom, patience, and whatever else we lack.

As our prime example, Jesus spoke often with His Father and even gave up fellowship and mealtimes in order to do so.


...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by ringo, posted 10-18-2014 12:36 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by ringo, posted 10-19-2014 2:57 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12807
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 343 of 381 (739003)
10-19-2014 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by MikeManea
10-19-2014 6:18 AM


Re: How to Debate Atheists
Hi, my name is Mike and I am currently working on a book called, 'How to Debate Atheists.' I have completed the first three chapters and would appreciate any feedback.
Start a new topic in the PNT Forum and I will promote it. Your book seems interesting and, while spamming is not allowed here at EvC the topic seems like a good discussion and trust me, you will get feedback here.

If you participate in this debate/discussion you will gather plenty of fodder to finish your book.


...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by MikeManea, posted 10-19-2014 6:18 AM MikeManea has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12807
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 344 of 381 (739004)
10-19-2014 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
01-06-2005 3:51 PM


Back To Debate With Theists
jar writes:

I have read the Bible from beginning to end and it is filled with contradiction, from Genesis straight through to Revelations.

The Map is not the Territory.

The only people who can draw a good map are those who have explored the territory. Several questions.

1) You claim that there is no Christian GodTM and yet you call yourself a Christian. While I agree that GOD is beyond human comprehension and explanation, I would argue that the entire concept of a Christian GodTM comes directly from examining the relationship that Jesus had with His Father.
2) Is it reasonable to assume that GOD is whom Jesus called His Father?
Is it reasonable to assume that there can be an agreement or consensus of a Christian GodTM through the study of whom Jesus believed GOD to be?


...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 01-06-2005 3:51 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by jar, posted 10-19-2014 1:09 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12807
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 353 of 381 (739245)
10-22-2014 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 348 by ringo
10-19-2014 2:57 PM


Re: Unable to meet God due to detached observer status
Perhaps they dont obey their parents, but chances are that in many ways they follow the example that their parents set. In other ways they don't.

I suppose that the arguments can be broken down into questions.

Were humans meant to think for themselves and write their own law, or was a law given to us at one time, broadened now into an age of grace.

FYI I don't agree with the philosophy that we are to correct God....at least not the One we have now. We are charged to correct ourselves and try and do our best, but it is unclear what it means to be in communion with God, allowing His Grace to make it possible and whether or not He empowers us to improve our laws and gives us grace to face ourselves in the mirror as a culture.


...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by ringo, posted 10-19-2014 2:57 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by jar, posted 10-22-2014 9:29 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 355 by ringo, posted 10-22-2014 12:31 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12807
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 356 of 381 (739316)
10-22-2014 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by ringo
10-22-2014 12:31 PM


Re: Unable to meet God due to detached observer status
You can lead a church to (Living) Water but you can't make them drink.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by ringo, posted 10-22-2014 12:31 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by ringo, posted 10-22-2014 4:21 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12807
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 358 of 381 (739323)
10-22-2014 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by ringo
10-22-2014 4:21 PM


Many Are Cold And Few Are Frozen
But then what's the point of leading them?

It beats trying to sell them gold chains and holy water online..

God foreknew that Lucifer would rebel, but He never made him rebel.

A leader may suspect that most of the people in his step study class wont listen to him, but he is charged to try and do his best anyway.


...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by ringo, posted 10-22-2014 4:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by ringo, posted 10-23-2014 12:34 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12807
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 363 of 381 (739377)
10-23-2014 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by ringo
10-23-2014 12:34 PM


Re: Many Are Cold And Few Are Frozen
Human leaders inspire humans to do human things, like fighting for the freedom of capitalist exploitation so that their kids can inherit the family business.

Jesus is a leader who tells everyone under His charge that they don't have to deny themselves if they don't have a heart for it.

He even lets everyone know beforehand that only a minority of them will graduate training.

He is a good leader, however, in that He took the bullet for everyone in the class...even the dropouts who chose not to hang. I hardly call that autocratic. You people seem to assume that there is a better outfit to become involved with...one that has no leaders, mass consensus, and individual liberty rather than groupthink. We are living in times like that now. Time will tell which philosophy is the better one.


...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by ringo, posted 10-23-2014 12:34 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by ringo, posted 10-23-2014 2:08 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 366 by jar, posted 10-24-2014 9:39 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12807
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 365 of 381 (739454)
10-24-2014 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 364 by ringo
10-23-2014 2:08 PM


Re: Many Are Cold And Few Are Frozen
I can imagine the conversation now....

GODs Chosen General: We wage war not against flesh & blood but against principalities,powers, and wickedness in high places! We have met the enemy and he is us!
Private Ringo Excuse me, but can i see some I.D.? I'm not convinced that i'm fighting the right foes here. All of the gods I've ever known failed to live up to their press release...and who am I listening to, anyway?

Satans army has better food and free beer! Who are we to judge them as the enemy?

General Ringo, why must you always be so contrarian? Can't you just listen to me? I AM knocking at the door of your conscience.

Ringo Looks to me like you have your servant Phat writing this script and I know he is not fully inspired to write it. I'm sorry, General...I and my critically thinking friends have far to many questions to join this outfit! Humans have discovered far too many contradictions and inconsistencies in the stories we have about your God! Religion is for the birds!

General Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Now fight the good fight, private and you will inherit eternal life!

Ringo So if the birds don't sow nor reap and yet get fed, why are your representatives always asking for my money? Frankly I'd rather give my spare change to the vagrants in the park. Those men are real,down to earth types...no religious facade there!
General I don't want your money! I want your heart and soul!
Ringo No can do. I don't know enough about you or your army to sign up...

So what can Gods General do?

Will Ringo end up in hell for rejecting that which he doesn't trust nor know enough about?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

If You Don't Stand For Something You Will Fall For Anything~Malcolm X


This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by ringo, posted 10-23-2014 2:08 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by ringo, posted 10-24-2014 12:48 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12807
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 367 of 381 (739471)
10-24-2014 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by jar
10-24-2014 9:39 AM


Re: Many Are Cold And Few Are Frozen
Phat writes:

Jesus is a leader who tells everyone under His charge that they don't have to deny themselves if they don't have a heart for it.


jar writes:

Chapter and verse please.

I suppose the keyword here is "under His charge". This would mean the Disciples, right?
Matt 4:18-22 writes:

- As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen. 19 "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men." 20At once they left their nets and followed him.

21 Going on from there, he saw two other brothers, James son of Zebedee and his brother John. They were in a boat with their father Zebedee, preparing their nets. Jesus called them, 22 and immediately they left the boat and their father and followed him.

So far it appears that the action of following Jesus is quite voluntary. Im attempting to prove that Jesus never makes anyone do anything. Lets continue...
Matt 9:35-38 writes:

Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness. 36 When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd. 37 Then he said to his disciples, "The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. 38 Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field."

Well...I suppose Jesus urges His followers to encourage each other to deny themselves and go and do...but I'm still unconvinced He is making us do anything! Lets continue...
Matt 16:24-25 writes:

--Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

He makes it clear that it will be their decision to deny themselves and follow Him.

hmmmm...the more I read the more I see no support for my statement. Im not giving up yet, though

I can empathize with the Disciples, however. After all, what do they get out of the deal??

Matt 19:27-30 writes:

27 Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"

28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

Evidently Jesus promises eternal life. So far, I cant prove where He told anyone it is ok to opt out.

all I can say is echoing this scripture.

On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
Im not convinced that one has to deny themselves. Shouldnt such an act be voluntary?
Phat writes:

He even lets everyone know beforehand that only a minority of them will graduate training.

jar writes:

Chapter and verse please.

OK I have one for this:
Matthew 7:13 writes:

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

If You Don't Stand For Something You Will Fall For Anything~Malcolm X


This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by jar, posted 10-24-2014 9:39 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12807
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 369 of 381 (820584)
09-23-2017 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 368 by ringo
10-24-2014 12:48 PM


Re: Many Are Cold And Few Are Frozen
God is on both sides, just like He was in World War One.
I think you have Him confused with The Rothschilds!
Maybe He's only in it for the carnage. He ought to know as well as we do that in war nobody wins.
The only way to allow free will was to allow a war (spiritually) otherwise he would have created perfect creatures with no ability to rebel and no opportunity to learn.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by ringo, posted 10-24-2014 12:48 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by ringo, posted 09-24-2017 2:31 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12807
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 371 of 381 (820616)
09-24-2017 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by ringo
09-24-2017 2:31 PM


Re: Many Are Cold And Few Are Frozen
ringo writes:

There's no such thing as "free will" - not when the only "choices" are slavery or torture.

I have noticed a pattern--in general--between believers and nonbelievers. Believers by and large want an authority in their lives and/or believe that they need one. Unbelievers seem to by and large think that autonomy is life's greatest gift.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by ringo, posted 09-24-2017 2:31 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by Tangle, posted 09-24-2017 5:34 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 379 by ringo, posted 09-25-2017 11:40 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 380 by Stile, posted 09-25-2017 12:41 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12807
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 373 of 381 (820657)
09-25-2017 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 372 by Tangle
09-24-2017 5:34 PM


Re: Many Are Cold And Few Are Frozen
you messed up my pattern, but I sense you have an honest answer. I will incorporate that into my database.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by Tangle, posted 09-24-2017 5:34 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by Tangle, posted 09-25-2017 4:45 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12807
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 377 of 381 (820677)
09-25-2017 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 376 by Tangle
09-25-2017 6:27 AM


Claim Check
Colorado

Thats where I live, tangle!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by Tangle, posted 09-25-2017 6:27 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by Tangle, posted 09-25-2017 10:01 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019