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Author Topic:   Random or just incomplete information?
Dr Adequate
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Message 11 of 44 (738563)
10-11-2014 11:42 PM


Quantum Randomness?
Some of you may be interested in the Bohm interpretation.

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 Message 13 by ProtoTypical, posted 10-13-2014 9:22 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 15 of 44 (738631)
10-13-2014 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by ProtoTypical
10-13-2014 9:22 AM


Re: Quantum Randomness?
The way I think of the Bohm interpretation --- someone should stop me if I'm wrong --- is that the particles are like balls in an invisible pinball machine. If we could know the exact position of the balls, and the exact state of the machine, we would be able to predict the exact trajectory of the balls, but we can't so we can't.

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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


(1)
Message 17 of 44 (738634)
10-13-2014 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by lfen
07-11-2004 4:26 PM


I agree with Mr Jack. Without wanting to start the Great Free Will Debate all over again, the way I see it "free will" means that my actions are determined --- by the state of my brain, i.e. by me. Adding a random factor in there doesn't make my will more free, but, if anything, less so.

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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16107
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Message 19 of 44 (738655)
10-13-2014 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by NoNukes
10-13-2014 2:29 PM


Re: Quantum Randomness?
Is that different from what I said?

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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 21 of 44 (738667)
10-13-2014 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by NoNukes
10-13-2014 10:06 PM


Re: Quantum Randomness?
Did you mean for the 'machine' in your pin ball example to refer to the configuration of the entire universe?

Yes. And the wiring makes its behavior non-local.


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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 23 of 44 (738685)
10-14-2014 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by ProtoTypical
10-14-2014 7:35 AM


Re: Quantum Randomness?
Is the non-local behaviour explained by some type of sub manifold that is folded up within the configuration space?

Are we still talking about pinball machines?


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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 25 of 44 (738692)
10-14-2014 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by NoNukes
10-14-2014 12:03 PM


Re: Quantum Randomness?
Your example simply mentioned knowing the state of the 'machine' and the balls. What distinguishes that statement from a description of classical mechanics?

I guess classical mechanics would be more akin to the balls bouncing about on a flat featureless plane. But perhaps I am overextending the metaphor.


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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 27 of 44 (738716)
10-14-2014 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by NoNukes
10-14-2014 3:45 PM


Re: Quantum Randomness?
Maybe not. I see where you are going with it. I imagine a machine where the position and action of the bumpers represents non-locality as opposed to the standard machine where the bumpers are where they are and do pretty much standard stuff when a ball hits them. On the other hand you imagine just having bumpers at all as providing distinction from classical behavior.

Well, there's also the fact that the machine's invisible ...

I admit to not understanding the Bohm interpretation well enough to comment any further and the reading I've done since you posted on the topic hasn't seemed to provide me with much insight. All of the rules we know about forces and fields are local, which causes me to have issues accepting this formulation ...

Well, yes, but ... what's Bohm's doing, it seems to me, is shifting the weirdness of quantum theory about. Compared to the Copenhagen Interpretation, his take on things seems downright mundane. Of course, that's not a reason to believe it, but on the other hand one can't write it off just because non-local fields are whacky when the alternative sounds like a physicist took too much acid.


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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 34 of 44 (739075)
10-19-2014 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by NoNukes
10-19-2014 6:37 PM


Re: Quantum Randomness?
And on top of that, you still cannot use Bohm's interpretation to predict when a nucleus will decay.

Something the Bohm Interpretation has in common with everything else.

The problem is that non-locality is not even remotely mundane.

I said compared to the Copenhagen Interpretation it's mundane. And it is. Compared to the Copenhagen Interpretation, everything's mundane.

Meh.

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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 40 of 44 (739174)
10-21-2014 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by RAZD
10-21-2014 10:58 AM


Re: Quantum Randomness
What happened to the unlike button? Now, when I really need it?

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