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Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 496 of 2241 (739472)
10-24-2014 11:15 AM


I've listened to at least the beginning of a few more sermons on inspiration. Here's a very brief discussion that covers the main points.
As this pastor Alan Cairns says, we do not know HOW God inspired the scripture, that isn't revealed to us, but we know that it is, not just by blind faith because we've been told it's inspired, but by various qualities of the scripture itself, such as the fact that every word has important implications for doctrine. This is something we all learn by studying it.
Its qualities are further emphasized by the reading of A W Pink on the page Inspiration. I've reached the end of my ability to think about this but there's lots to think about still and lots of preachers on that page for anyone who wants further illumination.

Replies to this message:
 Message 497 by NoNukes, posted 10-24-2014 11:29 AM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 497 of 2241 (739474)
10-24-2014 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 496 by Faith
10-24-2014 11:15 AM


As this pastor Alan Cairns says, we do not know HOW God inspired the scripture, that isn't revealed to us, but we know that it is, not just by blind faith because we've been told it's inspired, but by various qualities of the scripture itself, such as the fact that every word has important implications for doctrine. This is something we all learn by studying it.
Is your current understanding different from your understanding when you wrote that Jesus wrote the Bible. Because you seem to be saying something different here.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 496 by Faith, posted 10-24-2014 11:15 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 502 by Faith, posted 10-24-2014 1:09 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 498 of 2241 (739476)
10-24-2014 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 495 by Faith
10-24-2014 10:16 AM


Re: Some sermons on inspiration and inerrancy that back me up
Scripture says they were "moved by the Holy Spirit."
Are you talking about 2 Peter 1?
Verses 19-21:
quote:
19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.
20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things.
21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
If we compare that to Luke 1:
quote:
1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us,
2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.
3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,
4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
We can see that the description Peter uses, that prophecy never had its origin in the human will, does not fit with how the author of Luke claims he got his information, because he says that it did have its origin in the human will, i.e. he researched the history himself.
So, either Peter's qualitifaction for what is prophecy does not apply to the book of Luke, or the book of Luke is not prophecy.
Only the prophets used that phrase but all the writers are considered to have been inspired.
So then, there are two things: Scripture and prophecy, right?
And they are both "inspired", whatever that means.
Are their inspirations different or the same?
When it is said that God preserved every word they wrote it isn't meant to imply something as direct as dictation as I understand it, just that when they wrote it they were moved to use words that said exactly what He wanted them to say.
What is the qualitative difference between "saying exactly what He wanted them to say" and "He dictated to them what to say"?
There's a minor difference, perhaps, in how the author "heard" what to write, but the end result is the same, no?
I don't know but dictation would only apply if they were writing at the moment they got the information which I don't think was ever the case.
Then allow some leeway in what is meant by "dictation". Or we can try to find a better word.
Luke got his knowledge from the eyewitnesses, he was also an eyewitness himself at times on the trail with Paul as he describes in Acts; other gospel writers were eyewitnesses and used each other's writings to fill in the blanks as well. To believe all this is inspired is simply to believe that God guided and protected the writing of it, which is apart from how the knowledge was acquired.
Can you accept that the above is quite different from: "Jesus wrote the Bible"?
The difference you make between how Ezekiel and Luke were inspired isn't a difference in how they were inspired in the writing of their text but a difference in how they learned what they learned.
Okay, but I contend that "how they learned what they learned" is actually "how they were inspired" so there actually is a difference between the two authors.
we do not know HOW God inspired the scripture, that isn't revealed to us, but we know that it is, not just by blind faith because we've been told it's inspired, but by various qualities of the scripture itself, such as the fact that every word has important implications for doctrine.
Interesting. So with Leviticus 11:20:
quote:
20 ‘All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be regarded as unclean by you.
What is the important implications for doctrine in stating that flying insects only have four legs instead of the six legs that we can see them having?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by Faith, posted 10-24-2014 10:16 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 500 by PaulK, posted 10-24-2014 11:48 AM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 499 of 2241 (739477)
10-24-2014 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 494 by New Cat's Eye
10-24-2014 9:36 AM


Re: Some sermons on inspiration and inerrancy that back me up
Ezekiel says that the word of the Lord came to him. Luke says that he investigated the history of the events.
Those two authors claim very different ways in which they acquired the knowledge that they recorded.
I don't see an inconsistency problem at all with the different claims.
On a literal level, we can see that the circumstances of the two scriptures are completely different. Ezekiel writes words that he claims God is speaking to Ezekiel in an Ezekiel only event. There were no other witnesses but Ezekiel. In contrast, Luke is writing reports of what witnesses claims God said. Why in the world should those two circumstances require similar or the same type of input from God.
More importantly though, I think you make the mistake of conceding interpretation to Bible literalists. Perhaps even in Ezekiel 21, the author is poetically describing inspiration and clarity he feels about his prophesy in terms of direct instructions from God.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 494 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-24-2014 9:36 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 501 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-24-2014 12:15 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 500 of 2241 (739478)
10-24-2014 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 498 by New Cat's Eye
10-24-2014 11:42 AM


Re: Some sermons on inspiration and inerrancy that back me up
quote:
What is the important implications for doctrine in stating that flying insects only have four legs instead of the six legs that we can see them having?
*I* want to know the doctrinal implications of the counts of people in Numbers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 498 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-24-2014 11:42 AM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 501 of 2241 (739480)
10-24-2014 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 499 by NoNukes
10-24-2014 11:47 AM


Re: Some sermons on inspiration and inerrancy that back me up
I don't see an inconsistency problem at all with the different claims.
Together, they are inconsistent with the way that Faith has described the Bible as being inspired.
On a literal level, we can see that the circumstances of the two scriptures are completely different. Ezekiel writes words that he claims God is speaking to Ezekiel in an Ezekiel only event. There were no other witnesses but Ezekiel. In contrast, Luke is writing reports of what witnesses claims God said. Why in the world should those two circumstances require similar or the same type of input from God.
Yes, they are different types of "inspiration". Faith seems to be saying that all inspiration is the same, e.g. Jesus wrote it.
More importantly though, I think you make the mistake of conceding interpretation to Bible literalists. Perhaps even in Ezekiel 21, the author is poetically describing inspiration and clarity he feels about his prophesy in terms of direct instructions from God.
I'm pretty sure that is simply unacceptable to a literalist, and I don't see how it would further the discussion.
I'm just curious if there's an answer within the framework, I don't care to challenge the framework, itself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 499 by NoNukes, posted 10-24-2014 11:47 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 502 of 2241 (739493)
10-24-2014 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 497 by NoNukes
10-24-2014 11:29 AM


No, God wrote the Bible, Jesus is the Son of God, the words are all His just as they are God the Father's and God the Holy Spirit's.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 497 by NoNukes, posted 10-24-2014 11:29 AM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 503 by ringo, posted 10-24-2014 1:21 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 503 of 2241 (739495)
10-24-2014 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 502 by Faith
10-24-2014 1:09 PM


Faith writes:
No, God wrote the Bible, Jesus is the Son of God, the words are all His just as they are God the Father's and God the Holy Spirit's.
Then what did Luke investigate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 502 by Faith, posted 10-24-2014 1:09 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 504 of 2241 (739520)
10-24-2014 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 493 by Phat
10-24-2014 8:43 AM


Re: Some sermons on inspiration and inerrancy that back me up
Phat writes:
Percy writes:
And how do we know he did?
I can't speak for Percy or Faith or any one of you. All I can tell you is how I feel and what I believe on this subject.
I'm perfectly fine with what people say they feel and believe, but Faith says she knows, so I asked her how she knows. If her answer is that what she meant in that context is that it's what she feels then I'm fine with that.
But if she really does think she knows, then I want to know how she knows. The question is rhetorical, of course, because it is obvious to everyone that she couldn't possibly know, but I have a feeling Faith will tell us that she does know.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 493 by Phat, posted 10-24-2014 8:43 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 505 by Faith, posted 10-24-2014 4:47 PM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 505 of 2241 (739522)
10-24-2014 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 504 by Percy
10-24-2014 4:30 PM


Re: Some sermons on inspiration and inerrancy that back me up
Yes indeed, I know it. I suppose you can't accept that people could know something and not be able to prove to you how we know it. Oh well. But of course that was at least one reason I posted sermons on the subject that agree with me. Ought to show at least that I'm not alone in my knowing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 504 by Percy, posted 10-24-2014 4:30 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 506 by GDR, posted 10-24-2014 8:27 PM Faith has replied
 Message 508 by NoNukes, posted 10-24-2014 10:47 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 509 by Percy, posted 10-25-2014 7:05 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 514 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2014 5:39 AM Faith has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 506 of 2241 (739532)
10-24-2014 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 505 by Faith
10-24-2014 4:47 PM


Re: Some sermons on inspiration and inerrancy that back me up
Faith writes:
Yes indeed, I know it. I suppose you can't accept that people could know something and not be able to prove to you how we know it. Oh well. But of course that was at least one reason I posted sermons on the subject that agree with me. Ought to show at least that I'm not alone in my knowing.
Out of curiosity are you saying that you know God is real or are you saying that you know that your theological beliefs are accurate?
AbE ...or both.
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 505 by Faith, posted 10-24-2014 4:47 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 507 by Faith, posted 10-24-2014 9:26 PM GDR has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 507 of 2241 (739537)
10-24-2014 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 506 by GDR
10-24-2014 8:27 PM


Re: Some sermons on inspiration and inerrancy that back me up
Bible inerrancy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 506 by GDR, posted 10-24-2014 8:27 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 510 by PaulK, posted 10-25-2014 7:18 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 508 of 2241 (739549)
10-24-2014 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 505 by Faith
10-24-2014 4:47 PM


Re: Some sermons on inspiration and inerrancy that back me up
Yes indeed, I know it. I suppose you can't accept that people could know something and not be able to prove to you how we know it.
Point taken. Probably as close as we're going to get to an exit point for an argument with you on this topic.
Oh well. But of course that was at least one reason I posted sermons on the subject that agree with me. Ought to show at least that I'm not alone in my knowing.
We already knew that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 505 by Faith, posted 10-24-2014 4:47 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 509 of 2241 (739561)
10-25-2014 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 505 by Faith
10-24-2014 4:47 PM


Re: Some sermons on inspiration and inerrancy that back me up
Faith on Biblical inerrancy writes:
Yes indeed, I know it. I suppose you can't accept that people could know something and not be able to prove to you how we know it.
Yes, precisely, you "know" without evidence. How do you reconcile what someone else "knows" (also without evidence) that contradicts what you "know"?
You're using the word "know", but you really mean faith.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 505 by Faith, posted 10-24-2014 4:47 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 511 by jar, posted 10-25-2014 9:50 AM Percy has replied
 Message 515 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2014 5:54 AM Percy has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 510 of 2241 (739562)
10-25-2014 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 507 by Faith
10-24-2014 9:26 PM


Re: Some sermons on inspiration and inerrancy that back me up
I suspect that you "know" in much the same way that you "know" that the texts underlying the KJV are better than the older texts used by more modern translations.
By your own admission you could not accept the fact that the Biblical text was uncertain, so you prefer to believe the false certainty of the KJV-only crowd.
However, belief in a falsehood - however strong that belief - does not qualify as genuine knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 507 by Faith, posted 10-24-2014 9:26 PM Faith has not replied

  
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