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Author | Topic: Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I've listened to at least the beginning of a few more sermons on inspiration. Here's a very brief discussion that covers the main points.
As this pastor Alan Cairns says, we do not know HOW God inspired the scripture, that isn't revealed to us, but we know that it is, not just by blind faith because we've been told it's inspired, but by various qualities of the scripture itself, such as the fact that every word has important implications for doctrine. This is something we all learn by studying it. Its qualities are further emphasized by the reading of A W Pink on the page Inspiration. I've reached the end of my ability to think about this but there's lots to think about still and lots of preachers on that page for anyone who wants further illumination.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
As this pastor Alan Cairns says, we do not know HOW God inspired the scripture, that isn't revealed to us, but we know that it is, not just by blind faith because we've been told it's inspired, but by various qualities of the scripture itself, such as the fact that every word has important implications for doctrine. This is something we all learn by studying it. Is your current understanding different from your understanding when you wrote that Jesus wrote the Bible. Because you seem to be saying something different here.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Scripture says they were "moved by the Holy Spirit." Are you talking about 2 Peter 1? Verses 19-21:
quote: If we compare that to Luke 1:
quote: We can see that the description Peter uses, that prophecy never had its origin in the human will, does not fit with how the author of Luke claims he got his information, because he says that it did have its origin in the human will, i.e. he researched the history himself. So, either Peter's qualitifaction for what is prophecy does not apply to the book of Luke, or the book of Luke is not prophecy.
Only the prophets used that phrase but all the writers are considered to have been inspired. So then, there are two things: Scripture and prophecy, right? And they are both "inspired", whatever that means. Are their inspirations different or the same?
When it is said that God preserved every word they wrote it isn't meant to imply something as direct as dictation as I understand it, just that when they wrote it they were moved to use words that said exactly what He wanted them to say. What is the qualitative difference between "saying exactly what He wanted them to say" and "He dictated to them what to say"? There's a minor difference, perhaps, in how the author "heard" what to write, but the end result is the same, no?
I don't know but dictation would only apply if they were writing at the moment they got the information which I don't think was ever the case. Then allow some leeway in what is meant by "dictation". Or we can try to find a better word.
Luke got his knowledge from the eyewitnesses, he was also an eyewitness himself at times on the trail with Paul as he describes in Acts; other gospel writers were eyewitnesses and used each other's writings to fill in the blanks as well. To believe all this is inspired is simply to believe that God guided and protected the writing of it, which is apart from how the knowledge was acquired. Can you accept that the above is quite different from: "Jesus wrote the Bible"?
The difference you make between how Ezekiel and Luke were inspired isn't a difference in how they were inspired in the writing of their text but a difference in how they learned what they learned. Okay, but I contend that "how they learned what they learned" is actually "how they were inspired" so there actually is a difference between the two authors.
we do not know HOW God inspired the scripture, that isn't revealed to us, but we know that it is, not just by blind faith because we've been told it's inspired, but by various qualities of the scripture itself, such as the fact that every word has important implications for doctrine. Interesting. So with Leviticus 11:20:
quote: What is the important implications for doctrine in stating that flying insects only have four legs instead of the six legs that we can see them having?
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Ezekiel says that the word of the Lord came to him. Luke says that he investigated the history of the events. Those two authors claim very different ways in which they acquired the knowledge that they recorded. I don't see an inconsistency problem at all with the different claims. On a literal level, we can see that the circumstances of the two scriptures are completely different. Ezekiel writes words that he claims God is speaking to Ezekiel in an Ezekiel only event. There were no other witnesses but Ezekiel. In contrast, Luke is writing reports of what witnesses claims God said. Why in the world should those two circumstances require similar or the same type of input from God. More importantly though, I think you make the mistake of conceding interpretation to Bible literalists. Perhaps even in Ezekiel 21, the author is poetically describing inspiration and clarity he feels about his prophesy in terms of direct instructions from God.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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quote: *I* want to know the doctrinal implications of the counts of people in Numbers.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I don't see an inconsistency problem at all with the different claims. Together, they are inconsistent with the way that Faith has described the Bible as being inspired.
On a literal level, we can see that the circumstances of the two scriptures are completely different. Ezekiel writes words that he claims God is speaking to Ezekiel in an Ezekiel only event. There were no other witnesses but Ezekiel. In contrast, Luke is writing reports of what witnesses claims God said. Why in the world should those two circumstances require similar or the same type of input from God. Yes, they are different types of "inspiration". Faith seems to be saying that all inspiration is the same, e.g. Jesus wrote it.
More importantly though, I think you make the mistake of conceding interpretation to Bible literalists. Perhaps even in Ezekiel 21, the author is poetically describing inspiration and clarity he feels about his prophesy in terms of direct instructions from God. I'm pretty sure that is simply unacceptable to a literalist, and I don't see how it would further the discussion. I'm just curious if there's an answer within the framework, I don't care to challenge the framework, itself.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
No, God wrote the Bible, Jesus is the Son of God, the words are all His just as they are God the Father's and God the Holy Spirit's.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Then what did Luke investigate?
No, God wrote the Bible, Jesus is the Son of God, the words are all His just as they are God the Father's and God the Holy Spirit's.
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Percy Member Posts: 22388 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Phat writes: Percy writes: And how do we know he did? I can't speak for Percy or Faith or any one of you. All I can tell you is how I feel and what I believe on this subject. I'm perfectly fine with what people say they feel and believe, but Faith says she knows, so I asked her how she knows. If her answer is that what she meant in that context is that it's what she feels then I'm fine with that. But if she really does think she knows, then I want to know how she knows. The question is rhetorical, of course, because it is obvious to everyone that she couldn't possibly know, but I have a feeling Faith will tell us that she does know. --Percy
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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Yes indeed, I know it. I suppose you can't accept that people could know something and not be able to prove to you how we know it. Oh well. But of course that was at least one reason I posted sermons on the subject that agree with me. Ought to show at least that I'm not alone in my knowing.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
Faith writes: Yes indeed, I know it. I suppose you can't accept that people could know something and not be able to prove to you how we know it. Oh well. But of course that was at least one reason I posted sermons on the subject that agree with me. Ought to show at least that I'm not alone in my knowing. Out of curiosity are you saying that you know God is real or are you saying that you know that your theological beliefs are accurate? AbE ...or both. Edited by GDR, : No reason given.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Bible inerrancy.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Yes indeed, I know it. I suppose you can't accept that people could know something and not be able to prove to you how we know it. Point taken. Probably as close as we're going to get to an exit point for an argument with you on this topic.
Oh well. But of course that was at least one reason I posted sermons on the subject that agree with me. Ought to show at least that I'm not alone in my knowing. We already knew that.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Percy Member Posts: 22388 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Faith on Biblical inerrancy writes: Yes indeed, I know it. I suppose you can't accept that people could know something and not be able to prove to you how we know it. Yes, precisely, you "know" without evidence. How do you reconcile what someone else "knows" (also without evidence) that contradicts what you "know"? You're using the word "know", but you really mean faith. --Percy
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
I suspect that you "know" in much the same way that you "know" that the texts underlying the KJV are better than the older texts used by more modern translations.
By your own admission you could not accept the fact that the Biblical text was uncertain, so you prefer to believe the false certainty of the KJV-only crowd. However, belief in a falsehood - however strong that belief - does not qualify as genuine knowledge.
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