Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9071 total)
73 online now:
AZPaul3 (1 member, 72 visitors)
Newest Member: FossilDiscovery
Upcoming Birthdays: Percy
Post Volume: Total: 893,040 Year: 4,152/6,534 Month: 366/900 Week: 72/150 Day: 3/42 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Question About the Universe
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8479
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 76 of 373 (696850)
04-19-2013 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Son Goku
04-18-2013 6:12 PM


Re: Expansion of Space, not Everything
Does this mean space is being 'created'

Yes, essentially.

This is one of those things that is just impossible to understand.

if space is expanding, what is it expanding into? If it's making the space it's expanding into what from? And anyway, what does making space even mean??

No wonder people reach for the Goddit explanation.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Son Goku, posted 04-18-2013 6:12 PM Son Goku has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2013 11:19 AM Tangle has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 373 (696867)
04-19-2013 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Tangle
04-19-2013 4:42 AM


Re: Expansion of Space, not Everything
if space is expanding, what is it expanding into? If it's making the space it's expanding into what from? And anyway, what does making space even mean??

No wonder people reach for the Goddit explanation.

It's worse than that. People who have already accepted that God did it merely by speaking find modern cosmology ridiculous. It's easier for them to believe that scientists are involved in some kind of brainwashing conspiracy that keeps them in jobs and grant money.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Tangle, posted 04-19-2013 4:42 AM Tangle has taken no action

  
apoptosis
Junior Member (Idle past 3199 days)
Posts: 4
Joined: 11-30-2011


Message 78 of 373 (696874)
04-19-2013 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Son Goku
04-18-2013 6:12 PM


Re: Expansion of Space, not Everything
Ok my confusion.

My understanding (based on what I thought Cavediver had said, but obviously I misunderstood) was that space has inherent energy associated with it; given that energy has mass properties I somehow thought space had some underlying mass properties.

But apparently I totally misunderstood.

Makes sense as I was having a hard time meshing this conclusion with the first thermodynamic law. I figured I was missing something.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Son Goku, posted 04-18-2013 6:12 PM Son Goku has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2013 4:12 PM apoptosis has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 373 (696941)
04-19-2013 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by apoptosis
04-19-2013 11:53 AM


Re: Expansion of Space, not Everything
My understanding (based on what I thought Cavediver had said, but obviously I misunderstood) was that space has inherent energy associated with it

This is my vague recollection as well, but a search for cavediver's posts did not turn up anything. Let's also remember that under relativity, energy is not easily defined.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by apoptosis, posted 04-19-2013 11:53 AM apoptosis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by apoptosis, posted 04-25-2013 6:34 PM NoNukes has seen this message

  
apoptosis
Junior Member (Idle past 3199 days)
Posts: 4
Joined: 11-30-2011


Message 80 of 373 (697464)
04-25-2013 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by NoNukes
04-19-2013 4:12 PM


Re: Expansion of Space, not Everything
Well at least I now feel like I didn't totally make it up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2013 4:12 PM NoNukes has seen this message

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1207
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 81 of 373 (697484)
04-26-2013 4:54 AM


Mass of spacetime.
For certain spacetimes you can tell how much mass is needed to create them based on the properties of the spacetime. This is sometimes referred to as the mass of the spacetime. Of course the spacetime does not actually have mass, you can just infer how much mass was involved in shaping it.

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Dogmafood, posted 04-26-2013 8:22 AM Son Goku has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 322 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 82 of 373 (697487)
04-26-2013 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Son Goku
04-26-2013 4:54 AM


Re: Mass of spacetime.
Of course the spacetime does not actually have mass, you can just infer how much mass was involved in shaping it.

Don't you need mass/energy in order to have shape?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Son Goku, posted 04-26-2013 4:54 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Son Goku, posted 04-26-2013 9:31 AM Dogmafood has taken no action

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1207
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 83 of 373 (697491)
04-26-2013 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Dogmafood
04-26-2013 8:22 AM


Re: Mass of spacetime.
No, not at all. Spacetime has a shape, that is what the curvature of spacetime refers to, but it's not a form of mass/energy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Dogmafood, posted 04-26-2013 8:22 AM Dogmafood has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Tangle, posted 04-28-2013 3:40 AM Son Goku has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8479
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 84 of 373 (697631)
04-28-2013 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Son Goku
04-26-2013 9:31 AM


Re: Mass of spacetime.
Now you're just messing with us......

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Son Goku, posted 04-26-2013 9:31 AM Son Goku has taken no action

  
samreddevilz 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3156 days)
Posts: 7
Joined: 06-10-2013


Message 85 of 373 (701372)
06-18-2013 6:15 AM


From my point of view, I can say that every stars will keep come closer day by day untill the Final Destruction.....

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 2619 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 86 of 373 (739536)
10-24-2014 9:16 PM


Guessing about guesses
Any guess or theory as a more formal way of saying it, is as good as anyone else's.

Since I heard of evolution, the time periods for the beginning of our world and the universe have been increasing at an exponential rate, and the theories of how it all began have also, changed and expanded and become more complex, until now, when everything is being questioned, and dismissed, one at a time.
It won't be long before all those who hold on to today's theories will be old fashioned, delusional and so wrong.
But for the time being they KNOW, they really do, they KNOW how it all happened, and everyone else is so wrong and so deluded.


Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Percy, posted 10-25-2014 7:33 AM Colbard has taken no action
 Message 88 by Theodoric, posted 10-25-2014 10:18 AM Colbard has taken no action
 Message 89 by NoNukes, posted 10-25-2014 12:52 PM Colbard has taken no action
 Message 93 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-25-2014 9:46 PM Colbard has taken no action
 Message 110 by Astrophile, posted 10-28-2014 9:11 AM Colbard has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20733
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 87 of 373 (739564)
10-25-2014 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Colbard
10-24-2014 9:16 PM


Re: Guessing about guesses
Colbard writes:

Any guess or theory as a more formal way of saying it, is as good as anyone else's.

The word "theory" has a number of definitions (definition of theory), and for science discussions I think you're using the wrong one, the one that defines theory as a "guess or conjecture". You used the same incorrect definition of theory over in the Should we teach both evolution and religion in school? thread.

Science uses this definition of theory:

a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Colbard, posted 10-24-2014 9:16 PM Colbard has taken no action

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7307
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 88 of 373 (739569)
10-25-2014 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Colbard
10-24-2014 9:16 PM


Re: Guessing about guesses
Ignorance is probably not something you should publicly display, unless you want to rid yourself of the ignorance. It seems you are quite proud of your ignorance and have no desire to alleviate your ignorance.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Colbard, posted 10-24-2014 9:16 PM Colbard has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 373 (739581)
10-25-2014 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Colbard
10-24-2014 9:16 PM


Re: Guessing about guesses
Perhaps there is a question worth a look (and stomping a mud hole into) after getting past Colbard's definition of theory.

After all, YECs know that the Earth's birthday is 4004 BC based on documents written thousands of years ago based on calculations performed in 1654.

By contrast the scientific estimates of the age of the earth have been all over the place, and the history of those estimates reveals making wrong assumptions about mundane processes such as heat transfer and cooling, the source of the sun's energy, and the salting and de-salting of the oceans and getting bad numbers all while doing state-of-the-art investigations.

http://www.universetoday.com/75805/how-old-is-the-earth/


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Colbard, posted 10-24-2014 9:16 PM Colbard has taken no action

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 2619 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 90 of 373 (739605)
10-25-2014 7:28 PM


The attitude of science itself proclaims to be progressive in it's conclusions, along with the rate of discovery, so it really does not need "righteous defenders of the faith"who call others ignorant and delusional.
A true scientific mind does not reject something on face value but asks, how and why it may be so.
There is nothing wrong with guessing, it is the part of reasoning which uses trial and error, and a theory is just such a process. A theory may have certain gain and headway, but if we can see it is working it does not make "theory" suddenly become an indispensable truth or even a method of truth. It always is just guessing - methodical or not.
Once science stops guessing and proclaims to know it all, then we can be certain that the road to discovery has come to a dead end.
The fact about human thought is, and if you have not recognized this you are positively immature, that we can think we are on a right and workable track, which at some time comes to an end we are not prepared for.
If this happens in reality, then even the accumulative and agreeable thoughts of humanity cannot be an ultimate criterion for truth, as history proves.
Does this mean that whatever we discover has no basis in reality whatsoever?

No not at all, but every reality has to have a greater context than itself.

The flat earth is a reality, we don't build houses on a rounded slab, but it has a greater context, the earth is a sphere.
Any greater context, may not be applicable to what it includes, it may not even be able to be discovered, and yet it is there.

The very fact that knowledge has no limits, indicates that the universe has greater contexts than we can fathom.

In regards to the theories of the state of the universe, these can all be null and void through a simple context. Yet if such a context is discovered it should and will verify what has been conjectured, and sort out what was applicable or not.


Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Coyote, posted 10-25-2014 7:45 PM Colbard has taken no action
 Message 92 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-25-2014 9:42 PM Colbard has replied
 Message 108 by Percy, posted 10-26-2014 10:30 AM Colbard has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022