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Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 571 of 2241 (739838)
10-28-2014 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 569 by Theodoric
10-28-2014 9:44 AM


Re: What Are We Trying To Prove, Anyway?
I find it absolutely hilarious when someone runs on about fallacies and then commits one them self. As a matter of fact you just accused equivocation on another thread(but I don't believe it was equivocation) Now you commit an equivocation here. Gravity being true is a different meaning than ultimate truth. But then again you know that don't you.
No, you equivocated, because I was using "truth" originally in relation to truth being, "true things", you were the one to respond to ME, in regards to my truth statement about truth, so how can I equivocate with my own meaning of "truth"? Go back and read and you will see I first said:
"A person that knows the truth to the best of his ability (JTB) (epistemology), is a witness to that truth"
This would mean TRUTH. Things that are true - whatever they are. That's what I was ALWAYS referring to, so how can I then be switching the meaning? For me, if God is true, and gravity are true, then both are, "true". I never "meant" anything more by saying the word, "true". You have now switched to ultimate-truth, in order to discombobulate me.
Gravity being true is a different meaning than ultimate truth. But then again you know that don't you.
You're changing the goal posts. I just meant "true things". Through the entirety of this discussion, that's all I ever mean by, "true".
Yet you know nothing about me do you. If we were judging morality that way I would assume your were an amoral person. Lying for jesus is lying all the same.
In this scenario, you present two immoral actions, lying, and lying for Jesus. I judge neither to be correct morally. I was saying that people harp on about morality a lot, with grandiose words, and they accuse people a lot, like saying, "not very Christian of you", but then they spoil the effect by SINNING, like cursing at someone, "fuck you".
We both only have each others conduct to, "go on". Your conduct has not been good.
As I said if you have evidence present it.
The rest of your post is just self aggrandizing crap
The burden-of-proof isn't upon me just because you say, "evidence something". I don't evidence God like I don't evidence gravity, because the unrealistic atheistic-philosophy also has to at least evidence itself.
The rest of your post is just self aggrandizing crap
Yet I don't feel the need to use epithets towards you. "Crap", "hilarious". I don't need to state anything personal about you, yet why do you need to do it towards me? Says it all.
First make sure you are correct before declaring victory left, right and centre.
You got irate. I posted a good rebuttal and you got irate, that's all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 569 by Theodoric, posted 10-28-2014 9:44 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 574 by Theodoric, posted 10-28-2014 10:18 AM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 572 of 2241 (739840)
10-28-2014 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 570 by Theodoric
10-28-2014 9:50 AM


Re: What Are We Trying To Prove, Anyway?
Oh I'm not going to answer questions. No, no - we are specifically talking about a fallacy, an appeal to consequences. Nice try though. No, you've been very rude and condescending.
You appealed to consequences, end of story.
Selectively reading again?
Better than not reading, or understanding, AT ALL.
The point is you make it appear that there are consequences of having to believe in every god, but there aren't in reality, any more than if I give to charity, I will have to "give to every charity". Thus the consequent isn't qualified. Look, you said it - not me.
gods differ tremendously. So do charities. For example, I wouldn't give to a charity that helps homosexuals have homosexual sex in a "healthy" manner, as the, "healthy" thing to do, would not be to "misuse" the same sex, according to God.
In the same way, Thor is a "God-of-the-gaps", he only exists to serve one purpose, to fill in the gap for "thunder". This is clearly a genuine "nutjob" belief. So you see, you wouldn't have to believe in Thor if you were to listen to the gospel, after all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 570 by Theodoric, posted 10-28-2014 9:50 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 573 of 2241 (739841)
10-28-2014 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 565 by mike the wiz
10-28-2014 9:08 AM


mike the wiz writes:
That's equivocation, I wasn't saying that. I was speaking about a specific problem.
Mike, you have just got to stop working off that fallacy crib sheet you found a while back.
You didn't quote a thing and your message was a single short sentence. If you had some "specific problem" in mind, how would anyone know?
It's best to assume that mike knows exactly what the pragmatics of his own statements are.
When people begin assuming you know what you're talking about it will be because you've earned it.
If you have evidence proving your truth over everyone else's truth, now's the time to present it.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 565 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2014 9:08 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 576 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2014 10:42 AM Percy has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 574 of 2241 (739842)
10-28-2014 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 571 by mike the wiz
10-28-2014 10:00 AM


Re: What Are We Trying To Prove, Anyway?
I have had enough of your gish gallop and manipulating of words and terms. I will stick to conversing with honest debaters.
Good day sir!
ABE
BTW
but then they spoil the effect by SINNING, like cursing at someone, "fuck you".
I don't sin. No such thing.
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 571 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2014 10:00 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 577 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2014 10:45 AM Theodoric has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 575 of 2241 (739843)
10-28-2014 10:18 AM


This discussion is ended. I have done enough.
I feel Theodoric, it would be best to just let you have the final word, that your anger might abate. I myself am not going to get into an ego-war because pride is a sin I try not to commit.
Bless you sir.

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 576 of 2241 (739844)
10-28-2014 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 573 by Percy
10-28-2014 10:16 AM


...I know, I know, Percy. I mean - I just don't know what it is about me, you know I get so confused, and all these loose ends bother me, and you know people say about me that I really oughta just take it easy - let the big boys think for me, you know right now I'm going to get a cup of tea, I think it would be best all around, that way we might feel that mike is at least performing a task more suited to his ability. Maybe I won't get so confused all of the time that way? Don't you agree? I mean we all know only evolutionists have brains, after all - we all know only atheists understand principles, don't we.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by Percy, posted 10-28-2014 10:16 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 578 by Percy, posted 10-28-2014 10:53 AM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


(1)
Message 577 of 2241 (739845)
10-28-2014 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 574 by Theodoric
10-28-2014 10:18 AM


Re: What Are We Trying To Prove, Anyway?
I have had enough of your gish gallop and manipulating of words and terms.
I assume this means I say something then leave? Because in case you didn't notice, I answered all of your posts, and then handed you back your ass, sewn to your head.
I don't sin. No such thing.
Which means that you DECIDE what is moral - in which case, when you say, "not very Christian of you" or play the moral highground, you are only stating something about your own personal preferences, which are no more, "right" or "wrong" than mine. Ten super-intelligent people in a room might have ten different moral-value systems.
How convenient, that to you it's okay to curse at me, you just say, "it is not sin". Interesting, because that way you can basically get to categorize what you want to be sin and what you want to be moral.
Oh I'm so confused Theodoric, as you can see - you know Percy is right, I ought-ta just make a cup of tea, before thinking, I just get just - well, just so confused by the things I'm stating, I think I'll leave it to the atheists, their smartness comes from a kind of magic gene or something, they have in their head. Because for a moment there, I thought you were justifying bad behaviour towards me while making grandiose statements about morality - I guess it's all part of the confusion of being a poor, poor, simple Christian.
Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 574 by Theodoric, posted 10-28-2014 10:18 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 579 by Theodoric, posted 10-28-2014 11:40 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 578 of 2241 (739846)
10-28-2014 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 576 by mike the wiz
10-28-2014 10:42 AM


Mike, if you're going to make claims about yourself you have to expect responses. Respect for one's writings must be earned, not demanded, claimed or compelled.
Your analogy was currency. To continue your analogy, evidence for the legitimacy (or lack thereof) of a piece of currency can be easily obtained. What is the evidence for your personal truth over anyone else's personal truth.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2014 10:42 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 581 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2014 2:56 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 579 of 2241 (739847)
10-28-2014 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 577 by mike the wiz
10-28-2014 10:45 AM


Re: What Are We Trying To Prove, Anyway?
I answered all of your posts, and then handed you back your ass, sewn to your head.
Mikey you can believe anything you want and from your posts it does seem you believe anything you want. Just because people get tired of your crap and dishonesty does not mean that they concede you are correct or that you won anything. But if that is what you need to think in order to massage your ego, by all means go with it.
Btw, didn't you say something about the sin of pride? I guess moral relativity continues to be a problem with self-righteous, smug religious types.
Just because I don't believe in sin does not mean I don't believe in or have morals. I will put my morals up against anyone's any day of the week.
How convenient, that to you it's okay to curse at me, you just say, "it is not sin". Interesting, because that way you can basically get to categorize what you want to be sin and what you want to be moral.
You sure are good at misrepresenting what people say. Some people would call that a form of a lie. Are you equivocating the word sin? You seem to have a problem with equivocating and understanding what the word means. If you are going to quote someone you should actually quote what they say not make up something. Because that would be dishonest and some people would think it was a lie.
How convenient, that to you it's okay to curse at me, you just say, "it is not sin".
I did not say what you have in quotations. Are you lying?
Lets look at how you used the word originally.
mikey writes:
like saying, "not very Christian of you", but then they spoil the effect by SINNING
You are using it in a religious context.
Dictionary definition "transgression of divine law:"
As there is no define law there is no such thing as sin.
Another definition is any reprehensible or regrettable action, behavior, lapse, etc.; great fault or offense:
Which means that you DECIDE what is moral
Of course I do. We all do in context of the society we are part of. Everyone picks and chooses their moral system.
when you say, "not very Christian of you" or play the moral highground, you are only stating something about your own personal preferences, which are no more, "right" or "wrong" than mine. Ten super-intelligent people in a room might have ten different moral-value systems.
Thank you for making my point. Your claims of some sort of god driven truth seems to be debunked by you own argument. Not sure what the point you were trying to make with these two sentences, but I don't see how they support any of your arguments.
Oh I'm so confused
Obviously.
I think I'll leave it to the atheists, their smartness comes from a kind of magic gene or something,
To ridiculous to warrant a response.
I thought you were justifying bad behaviour towards me while making grandiose statements about morality
I do not have to justify my behavior. I feel no need to apologize for responding to attacks on my belief system.
Remember you are the one that jumped in on my response to Phat with.
mikey writes:
but remember, there's no such thing as morality according to atheism,
Message 559
This is incorrect and insulting. You have contributed enough on this forum that you know that this is not a correct representation of atheism. That you would continue to state this makes me believe your are misrepresenting reality on purpose. You are more than willing to attack others beliefs but find offense at perceived attacks on your own. That IS very christian of you.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 577 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2014 10:45 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 580 of 2241 (739859)
10-28-2014 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 560 by mike the wiz
10-28-2014 6:51 AM


I guess that you mean that Faith is an extreme relativist, who defines "rationality" as accepting her "truth" and "stupidity" as rejecting it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 560 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2014 6:51 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 582 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2014 2:58 PM PaulK has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 581 of 2241 (739867)
10-28-2014 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 578 by Percy
10-28-2014 10:53 AM


Mike, if you're going to make claims about yourself you have to expect responses. Respect for one's writings must be earned, not demanded, claimed or compelled.
I don't demand respect for my writings, nor demand it. That's not what I said, (as it would presume you are the worthy qualifier of what I say)I said it's best not to assume you know the pragmatics of my statements. I say this so that you won't make errors of equivocation. Naturally, it's quite self-evident that a person of normal intelligence or above will know what they mean when they state something, which is what my claim was, precisely, that it is more reasonable that a person will know what they mean by what they state, rather than what others think they mean.
You just USED what I said to make out that I was agreeing with what you had been saying all along.
What is the evidence for your personal truth over anyone else's personal truth.
I don't claim "personal truth" over others. Truth that is not dependent upon me believing it, is not, "personal truth". Thus, you are asking why my belief in gravity is any better than your grandson's belief in fairies.
This assumes that because one person has a personal religious belief, that what I believe will be the same as "anyone else's personal truth".
You have omitted to state your argument - which is to presume that what I believe in is the same as other people's personal truths. It is a non-sequitur to state that because I have faith in Christ, that it is therefore a personal-truth.
Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 578 by Percy, posted 10-28-2014 10:53 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 582 of 2241 (739868)
10-28-2014 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 580 by PaulK
10-28-2014 2:32 PM


Really it was just a passing comment - that people will always believe what they say is true. It's just a truism really but it doesn't really pertain to this thread, nor was it an attack on you or Faith, it was just a quick observation, that everyone is convinced they are right, which is a problem in life, generally, but Percy wanted to turn it into something more than I meant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 580 by PaulK, posted 10-28-2014 2:32 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 583 by PaulK, posted 10-28-2014 3:06 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 584 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-28-2014 3:24 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 583 of 2241 (739869)
10-28-2014 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 582 by mike the wiz
10-28-2014 2:58 PM


The problem is those like Faith who prefer to insist that reality conf0rms to their beliefs rather than making an effort to check that her beliefs conform to reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 582 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2014 2:58 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 584 of 2241 (739871)
10-28-2014 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 582 by mike the wiz
10-28-2014 2:58 PM


everyone is convinced they are right
I believe in God and I have an idea of what I think he is like.
But I'm not convinced I am right. And honestly, I'm probably not.
Regarding the Bible, it is obviously the words of men.
Too, it is not inerrant. The word of God? I suppose, but its hard to tell.
But I don't proclaim that as being true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 582 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2014 2:58 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 585 by mike the wiz, posted 10-28-2014 3:37 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 585 of 2241 (739872)
10-28-2014 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 584 by New Cat's Eye
10-28-2014 3:24 PM


Sounds like you've never experienced the spiritual revelation of the truth and been, "born again" of the Holy Spirit, then. Perhaps that time is overdue then, to make that decision, rather than stay ignorant about the truth? Out of interest, have you ever experienced any of the spiritual claims made in the New Testament? Have you ever spoke in tongues, or had the presence of God fall upon you, or had amazingly answered prayers? Have you ever felt the peace of His presence? Has He ever made known to you His will for your life, and have you watched Him work it out? Sounds like you're basically a head-theism. I am guessing because of Catholic upbringing. I was never born again when I was a Catholic, nor did I get anything from it. Very few genuinely are born-again in reality, as can be seen by their many strange religious, man-made beliefs, POST-bible, "factoids"
Besides, it's a false dichotomy anyway, "Is the bible the inerrant word of God or words of men". It can actually be BOTH, if God knows how to move men to do what He wants, to achieve His will. He surely can. Anyone who knows Him, like I do - knows this about Him. But obviously the words of ignorance are easy to spot, for someone who genuinely believes. For all purposes, you are basically saying this to me, "mike, come on man, we all know atheism is true, and materialist philosophy, this God-business is just a bit of fluff in my head".
Then don't pretend to not be an atheist, is my recommendation. Claim head-theism, based on human reasoning, and admit you live according to human reason/wisdom, not God's wisdom, and you put secular science before God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 584 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-28-2014 3:24 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 586 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-28-2014 3:54 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 587 by GDR, posted 10-28-2014 4:01 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 588 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-28-2014 4:07 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 591 by GDR, posted 10-30-2014 10:10 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
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