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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1486 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 361 of 2073 (739995)
10-30-2014 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by Colbard
10-30-2014 7:59 AM


Re: How to teach Evolution: not like religion is taught, not by misinformation ...
Sermonizing on Evolution is a contradiction.
You can present what one regards as fact, but to be emotive or moralistic maybe leaning towards the dark ages. We don't want to be preaching evolution.
Correct, so the proper way to teach evolution is the same way all sciences are taught, via the scientific method and how the theories were derived from the known facts, how newly discovered facts augment or contradict previous knowledge and how this affects the theories; what the theories predict should be found that is new knowledge and what they predict should be found if the theories are not true.
Curiously that is the way evolution is taught in science classes in public schools.
Making me out to be of the religious stock is untrue and unfair, since I have only been arguing the case that if the T of E is going to be taught, then it's basic name and philosophies should be scrutinized. Not all who oppose evolution are bias towards the church's agenda.
There are many churches and many beliefs, many beliefs are independent of churches, but all beliefs are -- by definition -- not supported by facts, just by faith. Science -- including evolution -- is based on facts, and further they are based on testing our knowledge against empirical objective evidence that shows how well that knowledge approximates reality. Belief cannot do that, not on faith alone.
Now Richard Dawkins is known to have said "It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that)" and he goes on to explain how ignorance is not a crime, that it is curable with education. He further concludes that he would not change his statement except that there may be a "fifth category, which may belong under 'insane' but which can be more sympathetically characterised by a word like tormented, bullied or brainwashed."
Another category I have considered falls into this type of behavior --
de•lu•sion -noun (American Heritage Dictionary 2009)
  1. a. The act or process of deluding.
    b. The state of being deluded.
  2. A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.
  3. Psychiatry A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.
Now delusion(1b) is similar to ignorant with a level of "bullied or brainwashed" added -- the person is not so much ignorant and misinformed, told something that is not true. This results in conflict when confronted with proper information and this can lead to cognitive dissonance
Cognitive dissonance - (Wikipedia, 2010)
Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, or by justifying or rationalizing them.[2] It is one of the most influential and extensively studied theories in social psychology.
A powerful cause of dissonance is an idea in conflict with a fundamental element of the self-concept, such as "I am a good person" or "I made the right decision". The anxiety that comes with the possibility of having made a bad decision can lead to rationalization, the tendency to create additional reasons or justifications to support one's choices. A person who just spent too much money on a new car might decide that the new vehicle is much less likely to break down than his or her old car. This belief may or may not be true, but it would reduce dissonance and make the person feel better. Dissonance can also lead to confirmation bias, the denial of disconfirming evidence, and other ego defense mechanisms.
Like ignorance this level of delusion is curable with education, but there is the added burden of unlearning the false information. In these cases it is best to start by discarding everything you have been taught on the subject and then learn the valid information.
Delusion(3) would be the same as insane.
Evolution explains the diversity of life, it has been validated by study after study, test after test, for over 150 years, and it has been intensely attacked without perceptible affect on the validity of the science.
Message 349
You're a kind bloke
Enlightened self interest-.
Then it's the independent v's the majority. What does history show about individuals who stand out from the majority? It' not a criterion for truth but often the case.
If it's the individual against overwhelming facts accepted by the majority then it is the individual that has a problem -- they have to show that the overwhelming facts are wrong and that there is a better explanation for all the evidence and why there is so much consilience from different fields of inquiry.
Again I use Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 as an example of the kind of evidence that not only has to be demonstrated to be false but how the consistent results happen.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : added

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Colbard, posted 10-30-2014 7:59 AM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
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Colbard
Member (Idle past 3472 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 362 of 2073 (740017)
10-30-2014 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by Dr Adequate
10-30-2014 11:19 AM


Re: How to teach Reality
Dr Adequate writes:
No it's not. Most of 'em are loonies. For every Einstein, there's a million idiots and crackpots who think they're the next Einstein. Of course, only Einstein gets mentioned in the books that get written about history, but this is a matter of sampling bias.
That's a good point, but the rabble includes the crackpots in the end, because they don't want to burn at the stake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-30-2014 11:19 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-30-2014 9:23 PM Colbard has replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3472 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 363 of 2073 (740018)
10-30-2014 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by RAZD
10-30-2014 4:09 PM


Re: How to teach Evolution: not like religion is taught, not by misinformation ...
... you've given a whole lot of things to think and talk about, which for me would divert from the subject, so for the time being I'll just wait and see where this thread goes.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 365 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 364 of 2073 (740023)
10-30-2014 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Colbard
10-30-2014 8:20 PM


Re: How to teach Reality
That's a good point, but the rabble includes the crackpots in the end, because they don't want to burn at the stake.
I'm beginning to wonder if your posts are randomly generated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Colbard, posted 10-30-2014 8:20 PM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
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Colbard
Member (Idle past 3472 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 365 of 2073 (740029)
10-31-2014 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 364 by Dr Adequate
10-30-2014 9:23 PM


Re: How to teach Reality
relax

This message is a reply to:
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Astrophile
Member (Idle past 209 days)
Posts: 92
From: United Kingdom
Joined: 02-10-2014


(1)
Message 366 of 2073 (740153)
11-01-2014 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by Colbard
10-30-2014 8:05 AM


Re: How to teach Evolution
"the world was filled with dinosaurs
The world is still filled with dinosaurs, but we call them birds to avoid hurting their feelings. Does this invalidate your conclusion?
we are all going to die like them
We are all going to die anyway, and every sane person knew this long before the non-avian dinosaurs were discovered.
unless we become fighters
I have known for about 60 years that I am going to die, but this fact didn't lead me to become a fighter. From the evolutionary point of view, the important thing is to leave descendants when we die. That's why avian dinosaurs (or birds) are still around; their Mesozoic ancestors did leave descendants.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Colbard, posted 10-30-2014 8:05 AM Colbard has replied

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Colbard
Member (Idle past 3472 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 367 of 2073 (740158)
11-02-2014 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by Astrophile
11-01-2014 5:39 PM


Re: How to teach Evolution
So the evolutionary purpose of life is?
To breed.

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Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 368 of 2073 (740159)
11-02-2014 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 367 by Colbard
11-02-2014 1:40 AM


Re: How to teach Evolution
Colbard writes:
So the evolutionary purpose of life is?
To breed.
Evolution does not have a purpose, it's just a human description of a naturally occurring process - like gravity or radioactivity. You're confusing a process with agency.
It would be closer - but still wrong - to say that living organisms' purpose is to replicate (not all forms of replication requires breeding). it would be wrong to say that because almost all organisms are not conscious agents so the idea of 'purpose' is invalid.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by Colbard, posted 11-02-2014 1:40 AM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
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Colbard
Member (Idle past 3472 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 369 of 2073 (740160)
11-02-2014 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 368 by Tangle
11-02-2014 2:49 AM


Re: How to teach Evolution
Tangle writes:
Evolution does not have a purpose, it's just a human description of a naturally occurring process -
Thank you, I knew it.
I was just replying to what could be concluded from the previous post.
Should we teach evolution and religion at school? We should teach neither.
Show what nature has but don't put forward dumb conclusions, let the students make up their own mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Tangle, posted 11-02-2014 2:49 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9531
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 370 of 2073 (740161)
11-02-2014 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 369 by Colbard
11-02-2014 3:44 AM


Re: How to teach Evolution
Colbord writes:
Should we teach evolution and religion at school?
Might as well ask if we should teach chemistry and the history of art. Of course we should, they are both extraordinary examples of knowledge and culture.
We should teach neither.
Show what nature has but don't put forward dumb conclusions, let the students make up their own mind.
Cobblers. We teach the things we have learned - incuding our conclusions from the evidence. Students are free to make up their own minds about whether the conclusions of the concensus are correct or otherwise.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22607
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 371 of 2073 (740165)
11-02-2014 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 369 by Colbard
11-02-2014 3:44 AM


Re: How to teach Evolution
Colbard writes:
Should we teach evolution and religion at school? We should teach neither.
Evolution is an almost universally accepted theory within science. On what grounds would you exclude it from public school science classrooms?
Show what nature has but don't put forward dumb conclusions,...
What are you referring to when you say "dumb conclusions?" If you're referring to claims that snakes talk and that there was one time when the Earth stopped rotating then I'm with you.
...let the students make up their own mind.
In Sunday School, too?
How about just teaching students the best of our knowledge in each subject?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4755
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 372 of 2073 (740203)
11-02-2014 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by extent
05-04-2010 7:22 PM


How can we teach both evolution and religion in school when they seemingly conflict so much
with one another?
I think a very overt logical problem is to categorize two extremes and "lump" certain teachings into "one or the other".
The above quote is rhetorical in that it is forcing us to think of any scientific facts as "evolution" and any facts of design as, "religion". This false dichotomy is apparent if we discuss the full and viable anatomy of a Giraffe for example, because we could go through all of the confirmed scientific facts that show that a Giraffe is a complete and viable design without mentioning Christ, or Allah.
For example the blood-pressure in a Giraffe is designed specifically because of it's great height, to be higher, and all of the contingency plans in it's body, all of the correct and complete anatomical, morphological, viable physiology, have nothing to do with, "evolution", there isn't a name-tag on the lung saying, "all of this was thought out by evolution".
So I don't accept the common rhetoric used to falsely dichotomize this situation. Another example is DNA code - and code is always meaningful to intelligence, it is Special Pleading to say that to discuss DNA in regards to an intelligence, is "religious", as we wouldn't deem it to be religious to discuss english literature.
It is very plainly obvious, that intelligent people can look at scientific facts and believe that evolution is highly insufficient to explain them. When we think of all of the other intelligent facts that exist outside of organisms, we still have an amazing display of well thought-out scientific facts congruent to intelligent design. Abscission, photosynthesis, the precondition-of-intelligibility, mathematics, the anthropic principle, and so forth.
People should be given the right to decide for themselves if all of these marvels could create themselves, as a whole, rather than the invocation of the evolutions. I see no problem in telling the student all of the facts, and letting them decide for themselves. If they then believe evolution could make a Blastocyst turn into a Giraffe over a period of months, and think no intelligence is involved, then obviously that can be their choice, but they shouldn't be duped into accepting false-dichotomies, nor should they accept the No-True-Scotsman Fallacy, by being told that only phoney scientists don't accept evolution.
They should be told the truth. If you need to dupe them, then that speaks volumes about the weakness of your theory.

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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4755
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 373 of 2073 (740205)
11-02-2014 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by Percy
11-02-2014 7:29 AM


Re: How to teach Evolution
Evolution is an almost universally accepted theory within science
Rhetorical, because if a meteor struck the earth tomorrow, and 99% of scientists were killed, and 1% left, let us imagine that after it hit, design became "almost universally accepted". We also have to consider closet-dissidents. Notice oxygen, gravity and germ theory ARE universally accepted.
This is why a quantitive argument doesn't work, because it is still going to be an Ad Populum argument. It is actually GUARANTEED, that because of the teaching of exclusivity, that all adherents shall adhere. (Tautological, because it would be like saying that all footballers have football skills because they were taught them, rather than skiiing skills.) Of course - but so what?
Students should be taught to think critically, and shown the facts of science that show an eye is constructed to see and is "specified complexity" on every level, from the type of eye-design, to the structure, to the micro-structure, to the code. This is also part of a system that starts without their being an eye at all, just a Blastocyst, that leads to a full organism, with eyes.
To say evolution explains all of this, is basically to lie to people, IMHO.

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2187 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 374 of 2073 (740211)
11-02-2014 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 373 by mike the wiz
11-02-2014 5:26 PM


Re: How to teach Evolution
Students should be taught to think critically...
You really don't want students to be taught to think critically about religion, as the claims religion makes fare very poorly when they are critically examined.
--A young earth?
--A global flood 4,350 years ago?
--A talking snake?
--Swallowed by a whale for days and coming out alive?
--Etc.
What you really want students taught is dogma, and I suspect you would only settle for them to be taught your dogma.
I would also suspect that you don't want to have students taught the Native American origin story that Eagle was the creator. Or any of those other "pagan" origin stories for that matter.
I have found that when creationists promote "critical thinking" they want only evolution criticized, and they want to have it criticized based on their religious beliefs rather than on scientific evidence.
On the other hand, creationists will do most anything to avoid having their religious beliefs subjected to critical thinking.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

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Colbard
Member (Idle past 3472 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 375 of 2073 (740218)
11-03-2014 4:07 AM


Mike the Wiz illustrated the point about giving information about nature but not making up a student's mind for them.
Learning is not an adventure if someone is force feeding.
True education should be about training the mind to be free and to think, to discover and to enjoy.
Observe and make your own conclusions. This cannot entail running tests on what others have concluded, but tests can only be done on whatever has practical value.
All the strange theories of evolution will not enter education.
Coyote, your remark about the talking snake, it is part of an old text, which if the students want to read, they can make their own minds up whether it is true or not.
If they want to delve into Darwin, they can. But to make another person's ideas a a criterion for getting a career is not appropriate.
Edited by Colbard, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 378 by ringo, posted 11-03-2014 11:06 AM Colbard has replied
 Message 392 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-05-2014 11:42 AM Colbard has replied

  
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