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Author Topic:   Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 601 of 1309 (740536)
11-05-2014 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 597 by Faith
11-05-2014 3:00 PM


Re: I Re: Second Thoughts
I really don't see why it should be so hard to tell the difference between religious freedom and discrimination on the basis of race etc. Discriminating against persons is rightly disallowed by law, but that is not what is going on in the case of businesses being asked to support an IDEA such as gay marriage or Catholicism as the Whore of Babylon. None of the businesses that have refused to support gay marriage have refused to serve homosexuals as such.
Well, yes. This is what I'm agreeing with. I agree with you, I know this is a difficult concept. But the fact is that the laws proposed have authorized general discrimination, rather than protecting religious freedom.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 597 by Faith, posted 11-05-2014 3:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 607 by Faith, posted 11-05-2014 5:37 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 602 of 1309 (740541)
11-05-2014 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 597 by Faith
11-05-2014 3:00 PM


Re: I Re: Second Thoughts
I really don't see why it should be so hard to tell the difference between religious freedom and discrimination on the basis of race etc. Discriminating against persons is rightly disallowed by law, but that is not what is going on in the case of businesses being asked to support an IDEA such as gay marriage or Catholicism as the Whore of Babylon.
In the long run, that will completely work itself out. No one wants to have people working at their wedding who are against the very idea of them getting married.
What has happened is that a few people act like douchebags about having to serve homosexuals, and they have been called out for it. The secret is, don't be a douchebag. If it is a gay wedding, simply say that you are sorry, but your schedule is full. It would be almost impossible for someone to prove intent. More to the point, there will be plenty of other businesses that will be happy to take their money, and those who object to gay marriage should have their card handy for a referral. Word of mouth will spread, and gay couples will find out who to call.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 597 by Faith, posted 11-05-2014 3:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 604 by Faith, posted 11-05-2014 5:26 PM Taq has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 603 of 1309 (740543)
11-05-2014 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 595 by Dr Adequate
11-05-2014 1:41 PM


Re: Second Thoughts
Dr A writes:
I am in favor of laws against discrimination, whether on the basis of sexual orientation, religion, race, etc. But I am in favor of religious freedom.
Despite the strange US aversion to the term, all modern democracies are essentially liberal and attempt to balance conflicting freedoms through their laws. But laws are blunt instruments which have a requirement to create blacks and whites where grey is more usually the real colour. They're macro tools that are forced to work at the micro level and that's a tough ask.
Generally laws push gross movements in general directions and only get into real trouble at the margins when differences between individuals force black and white decisions.
My take on this is that we really need to educate people about how important the law is and explain it's real purpose - which is to keep its citizens safe and allow us to go through our lives knowing that the state will only interfere with us in predictable and fair ways. In return, we're asked to accept the rule of law without exceptionalism. This means that individuals have a responsibility to society as a whole to behave reasonably themselves and not create unnecessary conflict.
In a fair and free society, people have choice - the gay couple needing a wedding cake who deliberately take their order to a company they know have religious reasons for refusing, is behaving as unreasonably as the business refusing to do the work. It's a deliberate act of provocation to make a political point. In effect they are abusing an important privilege.
The balance is really difficult and from time to time someone will quite rightly make a political protest that actually matters and is not simply unnecessary provocation - like sitting in a forbidden place on a bus. Sadly, we probably won't know the difference until long after the fact. But it's all part of the ugly civilising process and we really shouldn't think that we can make simple rules of how to traverse human difference.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 595 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-05-2014 1:41 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 605 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-05-2014 5:30 PM Tangle has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 604 of 1309 (740546)
11-05-2014 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 602 by Taq
11-05-2014 4:54 PM


Re: I Re: Second Thoughts
In at least one case I'm aware of the cake was ordered before the owner was told it was for a gay wedding. Too late to say there were scheduling problems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by Taq, posted 11-05-2014 4:54 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 609 by Taq, posted 11-05-2014 5:59 PM Faith has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 605 of 1309 (740547)
11-05-2014 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 603 by Tangle
11-05-2014 5:07 PM


Re: Second Thoughts
In a fair and free society, people have choice - the gay couple needing a wedding cake who deliberately take their order to a company they know have religious reasons for refusing, is ...
... made up in your head.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 603 by Tangle, posted 11-05-2014 5:07 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 606 by Tangle, posted 11-05-2014 5:35 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 606 of 1309 (740548)
11-05-2014 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 605 by Dr Adequate
11-05-2014 5:30 PM


Re: Second Thoughts
Dr. A. writes:
.. made up in your head.
Correct - as an example.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 605 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-05-2014 5:30 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 607 of 1309 (740549)
11-05-2014 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 601 by Dr Adequate
11-05-2014 3:58 PM


Re: I Re: Second Thoughts
Well, yes. This is what I'm agreeing with. I agree with you, I know this is a difficult concept. But the fact is that the laws proposed have authorized general discrimination, rather than protecting religious freedom
I'm very glad to hear we agree, but I don't seem to be getting your point. I'm not sure I know what you mean about "general discrimination." There is nothing difficult about the First Amendment's protection of religious freedom that I can see, and it's in the same amendment with freedom of speech. But this is exactly what the new laws are aimed against. Hard to see this as anything but an attack on Christianity in particular and a direct denial of the First Amendment.
Christian business owners have already been harassed, fined, threatened with jail, and in one case they retreated to home but won't do wedding cakes any more which has caused them serious income problems. There is no doubt that Christians are being specifically targeted. Homosexuals also check out churches to find out if anything they disapprove of is being preached, with the intention of bringing legal action against them if so.
What do you think of the lesbian mayor of Houston's issuing subpoenas to five Houston pastors to turn over their sermons and any other communications related to her new ordinance that allows either sex to use the public restroom of his or her choice?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 601 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-05-2014 3:58 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 608 by Tangle, posted 11-05-2014 5:51 PM Faith has replied
 Message 621 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-05-2014 10:10 PM Faith has replied
 Message 634 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-06-2014 10:42 AM Faith has not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 608 of 1309 (740550)
11-05-2014 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 607 by Faith
11-05-2014 5:37 PM


Re: I Re: Second Thoughts
faith writes:
What do you think of the lesbian mayor of Houston's issuing subpoenas to five Houston pastors to turn over their sermons and any other communications related to her new ordinance that allows either sex to use the public restroom of his or her choice?
Reference please

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 607 by Faith, posted 11-05-2014 5:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 610 by Faith, posted 11-05-2014 6:02 PM Tangle has replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 609 of 1309 (740551)
11-05-2014 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 604 by Faith
11-05-2014 5:26 PM


Re: I Re: Second Thoughts
In at least one case I'm aware of the cake was ordered before the owner was told it was for a gay wedding. Too late to say there were scheduling problems.
Then the baker should be more careful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 604 by Faith, posted 11-05-2014 5:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 611 by Faith, posted 11-05-2014 6:06 PM Taq has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 610 of 1309 (740552)
11-05-2014 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 608 by Tangle
11-05-2014 5:51 PM


Houston mayor
Hard to believe I need to produce references but that just shows that Christian news doesn't make it into the mainstream media. It's been huge in Christian circles for weeks now. There was such an uproar she finally withdrew the subpoenas. Ted Cruz, Mike Huckabee and Glenn Beck called for pastors across the nation to send her their sermons and others to send Bibles. Last I heard she'd received something approaching a thousand Bibles but stacks of sermons were still being packed up to be sent. This last Sunday there was a big gathering of pastors in a Houston church to protest this egregious violation of religious liberty.
But since you missed the whole thing, here's a Google page on the subject

This message is a reply to:
 Message 608 by Tangle, posted 11-05-2014 5:51 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 613 by Tangle, posted 11-05-2014 6:17 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 611 of 1309 (740553)
11-05-2014 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 609 by Taq
11-05-2014 5:59 PM


Re: I Re: Second Thoughts
Well, I'm sure they would be more careful now and ask the names of the bride and groom before taking the order, but the mother and daughter who came in to make the order sued them, they were harassed by people shouting obscenities into their shop and finally closed the shop, now the husband has a job driving a truck and the wife still does birthday cakes but no longer does wedding cakes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 609 by Taq, posted 11-05-2014 5:59 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 612 by Taq, posted 11-05-2014 6:15 PM Faith has not replied

Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 612 of 1309 (740554)
11-05-2014 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 611 by Faith
11-05-2014 6:06 PM


Re: I Re: Second Thoughts
Well, I'm sure they would be more careful now and ask the names of the bride and groom before taking the order, but the mother and daughter who came in to make the order sued them, they were harassed by people shouting obscenities into their shop and finally closed the shop, now the husband has a job driving a truck and the wife still does birthday cakes but no longer does wedding cakes.
Like I said, if they want to discriminate and get away with it, then they need to be more careful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 611 by Faith, posted 11-05-2014 6:06 PM Faith has not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 613 of 1309 (740555)
11-05-2014 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 610 by Faith
11-05-2014 6:02 PM


Re: Houston mayor
Faith writes:
Hard to believe I need to produce references but that just shows that Christian news doesn't make it into the mainstream media.
Yeh, well, huge in your Christian circle doesn't mean an awful lot, apparently. (And I really don't find that hard to believe.) Anyway, your link doesn't work - can you provide a link to a story from an objective source? ie not a Christian newspaper. I'd like to hear the facts.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 610 by Faith, posted 11-05-2014 6:02 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 614 by Faith, posted 11-05-2014 6:18 PM Tangle has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 614 of 1309 (740556)
11-05-2014 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 613 by Tangle
11-05-2014 6:17 PM


Re: Houston mayor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 613 by Tangle, posted 11-05-2014 6:17 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 615 by Tangle, posted 11-05-2014 6:30 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 616 by Taq, posted 11-05-2014 6:44 PM Faith has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 615 of 1309 (740558)
11-05-2014 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 614 by Faith
11-05-2014 6:18 PM


Re: Houston mayor
Well that looks like a good news story to me. Liberal democracy in action - two violently opposing viewpoints and silly actions from both sides defused without bloodshed and civil war.
That's how it works, when it works well - hopefully both sides will have learnt from it.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 614 by Faith, posted 11-05-2014 6:18 PM Faith has not replied

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