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Author Topic:   Question About the Universe
Colbard
Member (Idle past 1804 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 181 of 373 (740727)
11-07-2014 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Astrophile
11-05-2014 4:08 PM


Astrophile writes:

I don't see how spiritual principles could exist without a material universe for them to exist in.


That's because your concept of 'spiritual' is a disconnected ghost land or nothing at all?
When it could be the other way around,- that matter is relatively a hologram compared to other powers called spiritual powers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Astrophile, posted 11-05-2014 4:08 PM Astrophile has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19413
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 182 of 373 (740730)
11-07-2014 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by marc9000
11-06-2014 9:19 PM


marc9000 writes:

Well no, I never mentioned germ theory, and I don't even believe in the Book of Mormon. I was just referring to the general way that the scientific community has always gone after Christianity, particularly the book of Genesis.

The scientific community has not "gone after" Christianity, or any other religion. If you think it has then cite a few scientific papers that "go after" Christianity.

The truth is that Christian fundamentalists have "gone after" and are still going after science education with claims that Genesis is a scientifically accurate version of events and with demands that it should be taught in public school science classrooms. In the face of these claims and demands, explaining how Genesis is not a scientifically accurate version of events is not "going after" Christianity.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by marc9000, posted 11-06-2014 9:19 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by marc9000, posted 11-08-2014 8:48 PM Percy has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19413
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 183 of 373 (740732)
11-07-2014 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by marc9000
11-06-2014 9:39 PM


marc9000 writes:

Spirituality is not synonymous with belief in God.

But I'm still not convinced that "spirituality" is the proper word for anything that can be falsified or tested.

This make no sense as a response to what I actually said, most of which you left out. I followed that sentence with, "For atheists and agnostics I imagine spiritual things would be love, friendship, trust, awe and so forth." I didn't say anything about spirituality involving falsification or testing, nor did I mention any qualities that involve falsification or testing. No one has claimed or is claiming that spirituality is a scientifically verifiable quality, and it would be dishonest to imply that anyone has. What would be honest would be a response to what was actually said.

Yeah, right. There's as much a body that controls science as one that controls religion.

I can't go along with that - there's no "national academy of religion",...

There's the National Council of Churches, and they have as much control over religion as the National Academy of Science has over science.

There are organizations that largely control what is taught.

You mean like the Ohio, Kansas and Texas state boards of education who continually try to push creationist teachings into the schools and evolutionary topics out?

One religion can't haul another religion into court and legally shout it down, like the scientific community did with Intelligent design.

The citizens of Dover, Pennsylvania, (not the scientific community) went to court to have the creationist textbook Of Pandas and People removed from their schools after it had been installed by Christian fundamentalists.

Why don't you get on plumber's and electrician manuals for not showing respect for "spiritual or moral laws." It would make as much sense.

There are no best selling books out called "Plumbings Dangerous Idea", or "How Electircal Current Shows That God Does Not Exist",...

Books like these are responses to fundamentalist Christian attacks on science and science education. When Christian fundamentalism ceases these attacks the responses will also cease.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by marc9000, posted 11-06-2014 9:39 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by marc9000, posted 11-08-2014 9:05 PM Percy has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19413
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 184 of 373 (740733)
11-07-2014 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Coyote
11-06-2014 10:03 PM


Re: The hand of God
Coyote writes:

A google search does not show objects being observed 47 billion light years away.

Zaius is referring to objects that are close to 13.8 billion light years away now when their light arrives here, but that light was originally emitted close to 13.8 billion years ago. They've been receding from us over the past 13.8 billion years (due to the expansion of space) and are now around 46 billion light years distant, but the light they're emitting today won't reach us for another 46 billion years, and I think before that time they will have receded over the event horizon and we will see them no more.

I couldn't figure out what point he was trying to make with this information.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Improve the explanation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Coyote, posted 11-06-2014 10:03 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2014 12:11 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 192 by zaius137, posted 11-08-2014 11:53 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 185 of 373 (740757)
11-07-2014 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Percy
11-07-2014 7:47 AM


Re: The hand of God
I couldn't figure out what point he was trying to make with this information.

There is a point to be made about Inflationary process being conconcted to explain how the universe could be so large and homogeneous and in thermal equilibrium. But did he actually make that point?

If he had made it, he might have come up with something interesting to discuss.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Percy, posted 11-07-2014 7:47 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 1822 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 186 of 373 (740903)
11-08-2014 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Coyote
11-06-2014 10:03 PM


Re: The hand of God
quote:
And in any case, all of those numbers are greater than 6,000 years, which is what you seem to be trying to document in other posts.

Since inflation is arbitrary and assumed to have occurred in a fraction of a second, nothing says the universe can not be 6000 years old under arbitrary inflation. There are several cosmologies based on relativity that provides a explanation via gravitational time slowing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Coyote, posted 11-06-2014 10:03 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Percy, posted 11-08-2014 8:13 AM zaius137 has not yet responded
 Message 188 by NoNukes, posted 11-08-2014 10:17 AM zaius137 has responded
 Message 189 by Coyote, posted 11-08-2014 10:28 AM zaius137 has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19413
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 187 of 373 (740912)
11-08-2014 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by zaius137
11-08-2014 3:13 AM


Re: The hand of God
zaius137 writes:

Since inflation is arbitrary and assumed to have occurred in a fraction of a second, nothing says the universe can not be 6000 years old under arbitrary inflation.

Even if inflation never happened, there is a record of cosmological history stretching back around 13.8 billion years.

There are several cosmologies based on relativity that provides a explanation via gravitational time slowing.

Do they also explain talking snakes?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by zaius137, posted 11-08-2014 3:13 AM zaius137 has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 373 (740917)
11-08-2014 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by zaius137
11-08-2014 3:13 AM


Re: The hand of God
Since inflation is arbitrary and assumed to have occurred in a fraction of a second, nothing says the universe can not be 6000 years old under arbitrary inflation.

Nothing says an old universe? Surely a moments thought will show that to be Wrong.

However long inflation took, it is not currently happening at nearly that rate within the visible portions of the universe. That means that we have plenty of evidence for ages of the visible portion of the universe.

There are plenty of objects in the universe that place lower limits on the age of the universe itself. SN 1987A is one example.

And of course we also have dates for local solar system objects like the moon and meteors that indicate ages of 4 billion years and greater. Since those objects are within our vicinity, 'cosmological time-slowing' is not viable explanation.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by zaius137, posted 11-08-2014 3:13 AM zaius137 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by zaius137, posted 11-08-2014 11:48 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 201 by Astrophile, posted 11-08-2014 5:10 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 519 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 189 of 373 (740918)
11-08-2014 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by zaius137
11-08-2014 3:13 AM


Age of the universe
Since inflation is arbitrary and assumed to have occurred in a fraction of a second, nothing says the universe can not be 6000 years old under arbitrary inflation.

There is a lot that says the universe can not be 6000 years old.

For example, all of the things that date older than that.

Just as a very simple example, the tree-ring sequences in various parts of the world establish ages of 12,500 to over 25,000 years.

That blows the 6000 year date right there.

And there are many more examples of older ages, as noted in previous posts.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by zaius137, posted 11-08-2014 3:13 AM zaius137 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by zaius137, posted 11-08-2014 11:43 AM Coyote has responded

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 1822 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 190 of 373 (740934)
11-08-2014 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by Coyote
11-08-2014 10:28 AM


Re: Age of the universe
quote:
Just as a very simple example, the tree-ring sequences in various parts of the world establish ages of 12,500 to over 25,000 years.

I am familiar with most of the tree ring arguments… Do you have a citation for the 12,500 to 25,000 year claim?

A bit off topic but it is good information for me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Coyote, posted 11-08-2014 10:28 AM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Coyote, posted 11-08-2014 12:35 PM zaius137 has responded

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 1822 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 191 of 373 (740936)
11-08-2014 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by NoNukes
11-08-2014 10:17 AM


Re: The hand of God
quote:
However long inflation took, it is not currently happening at nearly that rate within the visible portions of the universe. That means that we have plenty of evidence for ages of the visible portion of the universe.

Most of those evidences you refer to are better described by other cosmologies…

Let us take on one example at a time. Point on point.

You choose the starting point.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by NoNukes, posted 11-08-2014 10:17 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by NoNukes, posted 11-08-2014 12:53 PM zaius137 has responded

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 1822 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 192 of 373 (740937)
11-08-2014 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Percy
11-07-2014 7:47 AM


Re: The hand of God
quote:
I couldn't figure out what point he was trying to make with this information.

Like chess, a offense is built three moves in advance.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Percy, posted 11-07-2014 7:47 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 519 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 193 of 373 (740942)
11-08-2014 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by zaius137
11-08-2014 11:43 AM


Re: Age of the universe
I am familiar with most of the tree ring arguments… Do you have a citation for the 12,500 to 25,000 year claim?

Try this thread:

Age Correlations and An Old Earth (ver 2 no 1)

Message 1

Add by edit: That thread started in 2007 so some of the figures are out of date.

Edited by Coyote, : Addition


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by zaius137, posted 11-08-2014 11:43 AM zaius137 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by zaius137, posted 11-08-2014 1:35 PM Coyote has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 194 of 373 (740946)
11-08-2014 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by zaius137
11-08-2014 11:48 AM


Re: The hand of God
Let us take on one example at a time. Point on point.

I've already given you two examples. Evidence from SN1987A and the age of the moon.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by zaius137, posted 11-08-2014 11:48 AM zaius137 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by zaius137, posted 11-08-2014 1:15 PM NoNukes has responded

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 1822 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 195 of 373 (740950)
11-08-2014 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by NoNukes
11-08-2014 12:53 PM


Re: The hand of God
quote:
I've already given you two examples. Evidence from SN1987A and the age of the moon.

Those are two cases here but I think we can take on SN1987A... not knowing this in particular... does this prove the age of the universe? Please specify...

Must take care of some business right now... will get back.

Edited by zaius137, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by NoNukes, posted 11-08-2014 12:53 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by NoNukes, posted 11-08-2014 1:23 PM zaius137 has responded

  
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