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Author Topic:   Fusion Power on the way - at last ?
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 11 of 130 (740267)
11-03-2014 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Jon
10-31-2014 6:50 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck At First
Jon writes:
Fusion is the only sensible alternative to fossil-fuel energy production.
Do you see fusion as a sensible alternative to the fossil-fuel-burner in your Toyota?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Jon, posted 10-31-2014 6:50 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Jon, posted 11-03-2014 12:24 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 31 of 130 (740747)
11-07-2014 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jon
11-07-2014 10:01 AM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
Jon writes:
Where they work they work. But they don't work everywhere.
It seems to me that something that works somewhere is better than something that works nowhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 10:01 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 12:05 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 34 of 130 (740758)
11-07-2014 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Jon
11-07-2014 12:05 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
Jon writes:
So I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.
Do I have to explain your own posts to you?
I was replying to Message 30 where you said, " Where they work they work. But they don't work everywhere," in reply to Message 29 where NoNukes said, "It may well be that people are not putting solar panels or windmills in their back yards, but nobody objects to having those technologies put on the grid if it can be done economically. That's one way that we use solar farm and wind farms."
You seemed quite clearly to be referring to solar farms and wind farms, which do not work everywhere. And you have been touting fusion power, which doesn't work anywhere.
Clear yet?
("And you want to be my latex salesman?")

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 12:05 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by RAZD, posted 11-07-2014 12:25 PM ringo has replied
 Message 41 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 1:21 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 36 of 130 (740761)
11-07-2014 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by RAZD
11-07-2014 12:25 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
RAZD writes:
Our town is investigating doing this on all town buildings.
We have several apartment buildings in town with solar panels just like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by RAZD, posted 11-07-2014 12:25 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 67 of 130 (740922)
11-08-2014 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Jon
11-07-2014 1:21 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
Jon writes:
We'll never see a fossil-fuel-less society so long as the alternatives can't be at least as good.
Fusion, if it gets going, will be better. And that is why it stands an actual chance of replacing fossil fuels.
That's exactly the point: IF fusion gets going it MAY eventually be something or other. But it ain't going. Right now, it's nothing. It's only a little above fairy-powered hamster wheels on the list of possible replacements for fossil fuels. Solar and wind ARE going. They ARE realistic alternatives. Which is why I said in Message 31 that a real alternative is inherently better than a fantasy one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 1:21 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Jon, posted 11-08-2014 11:37 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 70 of 130 (740931)
11-08-2014 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Jon
11-07-2014 1:11 PM


Re: solar and wind in a distributed web -- attuned to life
Jon writes:
Yes. But can I put those on my car?
I can put a science fiction book about fusion power in my car.
Don't get me wrong. I'd love to be able to go to Home Depot and buy a portable fusion reactor that would power my house. But I can't. I can't even read about an experimental one that's powering a small building for eight million dollars a year.
With the technological development that I've seen in my lifetime, I'd hesitate to say it won't happen any time soon but it's pretty silly to dismiss the alternatives that do work in favour of a pipe dream that might someday be a miracle solution.
By the way, if I do buy a portable fusion generator that can put out a few thousand kWh, what will it run on?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 1:11 PM Jon has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 73 of 130 (740935)
11-08-2014 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Jon
11-08-2014 11:37 AM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
Jon writes:
Sure. But you also need to address whether those alternatives can replace fossil fuels. So far, no one has even approached the feasibility of replacing fossil fuels with solar or wind.
The question isn't whether or not they can replace fossil fuels completely at some point in the future. The question is whether or not they can replace somefossil fuels now - and the answer is, "Yes."
We don't know when, or if, fusion power will become a reality. For the time being, we have to use real-world solutions, whether they are ultimate solutions or not. IF some day fusion power becomes a reality, it will have to compete with wind and solar. Maybe it will put them out of business. Maybe not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Jon, posted 11-08-2014 11:37 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Jon, posted 11-08-2014 12:44 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 77 of 130 (741078)
11-09-2014 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Jon
11-08-2014 12:44 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
Jon writes:
I'm talking specifically bout the real-world (in)feasibility of large-scale solar/wind power in place of fossil fuels.
Of course it isn't feasible to replace fossil fuels with solar/wind in cars, etc. I asked you in Message 70, "If I do buy a portable fusion generator that can put out a few thousand kWh, what will it run on?"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Jon, posted 11-08-2014 12:44 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Jon, posted 11-09-2014 1:53 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 79 of 130 (741092)
11-09-2014 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Jon
11-09-2014 1:53 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
Jon writes:
Presumably the same thing any other fusion generator would run on: fusion power (from Wikipedia).
Don't play dumb. What fuels it? You can't get something from nothing. What's the input?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Jon, posted 11-09-2014 1:53 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Jon, posted 11-09-2014 2:26 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 81 of 130 (741097)
11-09-2014 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Jon
11-09-2014 2:26 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
Jon writes:
I ain't the Fusion Genie. If you want to know, look it up. I gave you the link.
I asked you earlier in the thread if you could run your Toyota on fusion power. Your answer was the highly profound, "Yes."
I'm asking you to back up your claim. The onus is on you to tell us what that Toyota would run on or what my portable generator would run on. What is the input?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Jon, posted 11-09-2014 2:26 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Jon, posted 11-09-2014 3:54 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 83 of 130 (741167)
11-10-2014 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Jon
11-09-2014 3:54 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
Jon writes:
What you actually said was: "Do you see fusion as a sensible alternative to the fossil-fuel-burner in your Toyota?"
I am trying to get you to answer a simple question: What would a fusion reactor - say in a car - run on? In effect, a fusion reactor is an internal "combustion" engine, so what is the input?
The point of the question is that there has to be something that you put in the car to make it go from A to B. I want you to tell us what that something is for fusion power. Then we can discuss whether or not that something is an effective alternative to fossil fuels.
If not, then there are no alternatives, not even pipe dreams, and we'll have to think about getting rid of millions of individual engines instead of perpetuating a system that was probably a bad idea in the first place.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Jon, posted 11-09-2014 3:54 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Jon, posted 11-10-2014 10:54 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 85 of 130 (741176)
11-10-2014 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Jon
11-10-2014 10:54 AM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
Jon writes:
Read the Wikipedia article.
Read the rules. Bare links are not a legitimate argument. They're only for backing up an argument that you actually make.
Jon writes:
Like I said, it's not my job to answer all your questions about fusion (me not being a nuclear physicist and all).
Your claim is that fusion is the only potential alternative to fossil fuels for private vehicles. I'm saying that we need to know what the input is before we can decide whether or not it really is a viable alternative. For example, if the input is hydrogen (wild guess), then the plants that produce hydrogen present a whole new layer of problems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Jon, posted 11-10-2014 10:54 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Jon, posted 11-10-2014 12:03 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 87 of 130 (741198)
11-10-2014 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Jon
11-10-2014 12:03 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
Jon writes:
You asked a bare question and I kindly provided a link to a resource that would answer it.
Bare questions are allowed. Bare links are not. If you don't know the answer, just admit it.
I think it's an important question. If we need to put something into a fusion reactor to make it work - and the laws of thermodynamics suggest that we do - then the availability and suitability of that input is important to any discussion of whether or not fusion is a viable alternative.
So, what's the input?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Jon, posted 11-10-2014 12:03 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by xongsmith, posted 11-10-2014 1:36 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 89 by Percy, posted 11-10-2014 1:44 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 92 of 130 (741430)
11-12-2014 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Percy
11-10-2014 1:44 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
Percy writes:
In my rudimentary understanding of fusion, it is the deuterium and tritium isotopes of hydrogen that is the fuel. The big problem isn't fuel, I wouldn't think, but ignition.
I would have thought going down to the Shell station to fill up on deuterium and tritium was a bit of a problem.
But I thought Jon might be thinking of using fusion indirectly to fuel cars with hydrogen that was produced by gigantic fusion power plants.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Percy, posted 11-10-2014 1:44 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Rahvin, posted 11-12-2014 1:34 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 96 of 130 (741581)
11-13-2014 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Rahvin
11-12-2014 1:34 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
Rahvin writes:
Hydrogen is not a power source - it has to be generated by cracking water...with extremely large amounts of heat, or with electricity. So we need the high-capacity power plants either way (nuclear to generate the extreme heat for that method, or just any significant power output for the electrolysis method).
That's what I was thinking - which is why I don't take Jon's claim about fusion-powered cars seriously. Surely deuterium/tritium fuel would entail the same problems as hydrogen, or worse.
Rahvin writes:
Electric vehicles are making leaps and bounds in their range and energy density. Battery technology has not remained stagnant.
My main concern about electric cars is the Canadian winter. What happens to your battery when it's parked outside overnight?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Rahvin, posted 11-12-2014 1:34 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Rahvin, posted 11-13-2014 3:24 PM ringo has replied

  
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