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Author Topic:   Saddam Captured? (part 2)
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 31 of 43 (73153)
12-15-2003 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by gene90
12-15-2003 7:14 PM


quote:
If improvement starts after the government changes, I think that pretty much implies that the war was the ultimate cause.
Heheh... this also has a hidden proposition (or three). Were improvements to living conditions completely linked to government change, was government change necessarily linked to war, and was war necessarily linked to the coalition which was established to wage it and in the fashion in which it was waged?
One can say that whetever results is certainly the result of what happened. And so yes, any improvements which come out of it DID come from what happened.
What I am saying is that to use that to pin a medal on the coalition and the war is somewhat overstepping a boundary.
I do not believe that to get to the stage of a better life for the Iraqi people, any of the three things above were necessary. Thankfully it may happen, but other options were available.
I will agree with you if you are of the opinion we should have been doing SOMETHING about Iraq to improve conditions, and if nothing was done then Iraqis certainly would be worse off today. That is true.
But regime change, war, and war specifically as carried out (especially with no appropriate plans for occupation)? No.
quote:
For all we know Saddam would have a massive purge of Kurdish populations or invaded Kuwait again.
This could not have happened as long as we kept him boxed up like we had him and encouraged his regime to shift its interests. I think history is pretty clear that the purges happened under specific conditions and he was amenable to diplomatic pressures when appropriately backed by force.
I am unsure how you could envision Iraq invading Kuwait ever again. Maybe he did in his dreams, and even then he'd have to wake up apologizing.
Let me improve my analogy (and shift it away from cars).
You owned a home in a relatively decent city. It used to be really classy, but has been sliding in recent years. Some police department in another state decides that criminals may be moving into your city.
They set up an undercover agent as the head of your local government. He is a man that is reasonably popular though a known brute. Thankfully he is brutish toward the criminals that the other state's police department wants wiped out.
The man ends up taking over the government and oppressing any opposition, but the police department helps him oppress because he is doing a "good job."
Eventually the man steals from the government and from the people in general. Your city is thoroughly ravaged and your house reduced to a hovel. The police department keeps him on because he is doing a "good job."
Finally the man ends up bucking orders from his commanding officers in that other state, and they no longer consider him a good undercover agent.
After busting up one of his "illegal" operations did not set him straight, the other state's police department invades your neighborhood, killing your friends and family in the process. Other states said this was not necessary, and it was illegal. They had offered other plans but were ignored by the first state, which said damn the laws and went in guns blazing.
Not sure what to do about running a government after taking out the renegade agent, they let your neighborhood slide further into anarchy.
Then after much berating by the other district police departments, and public embarassment, they change how they are running your government and actually fix up the neighborhood. Maybe even better than before they installed their agent.
If you want to say that police department deserves credit for "fixing up your neighborhood", then to that degree the coalition deserves credit for "fixing up Iraq".
You need to keep in mind Hussein is not some recent event.
We helped keep him in power and said nothing till he bit into our oil supply (Cheney himself said this in an interview and said he found this not to be an immoral position). Other nations offered plans which may have worked just as well and without the cost of the invasion and certainly would have maintained the rule of law (not to mention did not give extremist elements a brand new home).
I hope we do improve the lives of Iraqis, but if we do that is a debt paid, not a credit earned.
By the way, you said Volkswagon into Ferrari. Do you really believe the situation for the average Iraqi is going to improve that much? Especially if religious groups gain control of the government (which they will if we allow a real democratic government) or capitalism replaces socialism (which will remove the medical care they currently receive)? God help them if they suddenly need HMOs!
I would also like to point out that this has all happened about 100 years ago. The British crushed the government of Iraq (with an air bombing none the less) and replaced it with what they said would be a model government for the region. Within 50 years it had devolved into bloodshed of internal fighting, from which Saddam was able to emerge. How can you be so sure this is not about to be relived?
That said, I do hope we do right by them and the opportunity that is there is grasped.
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by gene90, posted 12-15-2003 7:14 PM gene90 has not replied

  
Prometheus
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 43 (73183)
12-15-2003 10:11 PM


The war could have been prevented if the american people would have called there congressman and said no war if enough people don't want war then it could have been stoped. Now if they did not do research or anything just went by what they where told that is not any fault of any administration.
The administration's reason for war was not just wmd's but a few other things, they may have said them more but that does not make it only one.
Now we are there what has happen is over and done. The US is trying to build up iraq, with a stable goverment so that they can leave.
now point of descusion is? people have so many points to bring up when it is so much easier just to work on one goal.
Why how or when we started it does not matter that is the past time to focus on cleaning up the place.
I my self wanted to go over there and see it for my self.
I am not saying the war is badly planned, as i am not in the military i can not know what they have access too. What i am trying to say is all the news no MATTER the source will not have the same information that the Military has. (just trying to say they have better sources for things and reasons for doing things that go far beyond what we know, i mean the US government will do something if they find they have good reason becuse of what comes up on there intelligence network.)
------------------
I am not god, but working my way there one life at a time.

Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 33 of 43 (73407)
12-16-2003 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Rei
12-15-2003 7:22 PM


quote:
Great job! I may have to use that wording some time...
Feel free, at least I know you won't misquote me right? Heheheh.
Anyway, you usually sum up my sentiments with your posts, and thankfully post tons of links so I don't have to go back and Google stuff I've already read.
------------------
holmes

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M82A1
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 43 (73520)
12-16-2003 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Prometheus
12-15-2003 10:11 PM


Good post Prometheus!
Ah, I wish I didn't have to wait to turn 18 before joining the Army.
[This message has been edited by M82A1, 12-16-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Prometheus, posted 12-15-2003 10:11 PM Prometheus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Rei, posted 12-16-2003 8:08 PM M82A1 has replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7012 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 35 of 43 (73539)
12-16-2003 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by M82A1
12-16-2003 7:40 PM


Re: Good post Prometheus!
quote:
Ah, I wish I didn't have to wait to turn 18 before joining the Army.
Looking forward to cocktail innoculations, nerve gas tablets, and/or depleted uranium, which some combination of the above left about 1 in 10 people from the first Gulf War with medical problems, and disabled a large number of them with severe nervous disorders? Looking forward to absolutely no personal freedoms or civil liberties - even including saying or writing things that your superiors don't like? Looking forward to being part of an army of occupation, and being able to see the look of scorn for that on people's faces? Looking forward to killing people, even though you often don't have the time to determine if the person you just aimed at was a civilian or not when in an urban combat situation? Looking forward to finding out afterward that you just blew up a car with a family inside, so you can be haunted by that knowlege for the rest of your life? Looking forward to being skimped on pay and benefits the whole time (about a third of the nation's homeless are veterans)?
I'll never get why on Earth someone would want to join the military - especially now.
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by M82A1, posted 12-16-2003 7:40 PM M82A1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by M82A1, posted 12-16-2003 8:47 PM Rei has not replied
 Message 38 by Silent H, posted 12-17-2003 1:37 AM Rei has not replied

  
M82A1
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 43 (73580)
12-16-2003 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Rei
12-16-2003 8:08 PM


Re: Good post Prometheus!
quote:
Looking forward to cocktail innoculations, nerve gas tablets, and/or depleted uranium, which some combination of the above left about 1 in 10 people from the first Gulf War with medical problems, and disabled a large number of them with severe nervous disorders? Looking forward to absolutely no personal freedoms or civil liberties - even including saying or writing things that your superiors don't like? Looking forward to being part of an army of occupation, and being able to see the look of scorn for that on people's faces? Looking forward to killing people, even though you often don't have the time to determine if the person you just aimed at was a civilian or not when in an urban combat situation? Looking forward to finding out afterward that you just blew up a car with a family inside, so you can be haunted by that knowlege for the rest of your life? Looking forward to being skimped on pay and benefits the whole time (about a third of the nation's homeless are veterans)?
Yeah! How'd you know? I also can't wait for the Gas chamber.
quote:
I'll never get why on Earth someone would want to join the military - especially now.
Let's just say I have an urge to lower the population of Homo sapiens sapiens.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Silent H, posted 12-17-2003 1:10 AM M82A1 has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 37 of 43 (73645)
12-17-2003 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by M82A1
12-16-2003 8:47 PM


quote:
Let's just say I have an urge to lower the population of Homo sapiens sapiens.
I hear Osama BinLaden is looking for a few good men with that kind of attitude.
Sounds like you could have worked for Saddam too. Blind loyalty, gallows humor, and not even 18. Too bad for you he's out of business.
It must really suck that by the time you turn 18 there may not be anybody you'll legally be able to kill.
Just a question, did you watch all those tapes you detailed for us? Did they excite you?
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by M82A1, posted 12-16-2003 8:47 PM M82A1 has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 38 of 43 (73647)
12-17-2003 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Rei
12-16-2003 8:08 PM


quote:
I'll never get why on Earth someone would want to join the military - especially now.
Having almost joined up (a long time ago), I can tell you why.
There is something basically good in public service. There is also a real need for the military as a public service. Someone must be trained and ready for possibilities even if they do not become realities.
While undoubtedly the way service people are treated is shitty, made even worse by Bush's cutting of veteran's benefits, this does not reduce its importance as a service. All this calls for is a change in policy towards members of the armed services.
I would have been proud to be in the service in the right administration. And that may be what seperates me from those that go to serve no matter who is controlling their lives. To be honest though, I also almost had to go just for college purposes, which may be another dividing line between me and those who often end up serving.
I really feel for those that joined post 9-11, because feelings of wanting to do something ran pretty high. In fact I wanted to reopen my processing into OCS at that point, but realistically couldn't given that I had just moved back to the states with my gf and started a business. If I had joined it would have totally screwed her over.
I am always sad to hear how many soldiers ended up joining with the same craving for violence, rather than real sense of duty, M8 expressed in his post. I don't find his humor funny as it gives the military a bad name. It makes us look as bad as the thugs we need to fight.
------------------
holmes
[This message has been edited by holmes, 12-17-2003]

This message is a reply to:
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M82A1
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 43 (73771)
12-17-2003 12:48 PM


Perhaps nobody cares about the crisis that mankind is in right now? Let me quote the book 'Origins':
quote:
"Humans may be masters of the Earth for the moment, but we should reflect that just as our planet has had a long history, of which modern humans have occupied a tiny fraction of one percent, so too does it have a long future. In another 200 million years will Homo sapiens sapiens still have a leading role?
The answer is most certainly: No - for if we continue to display the arrogance and profligacy that mark the behavior of so-called civilized people, we will soon have taxed the environment beyond the limits of our own adaptability, if not that of the Earth itself.
"
And let me tell you something else, in 1975, the world population of Humans was around 3,890,000,000. Today, the population is around 7,410,000,000. In the next 50 years that number will quadruple. I think you know what that means for the environment?
------------------
"The only thing necessary for the Triumph of Evil is for Good Men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
[This message has been edited by M82A1, 12-17-2003]

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Silent H, posted 12-17-2003 2:35 PM M82A1 has replied
 Message 41 by Prometheus, posted 12-18-2003 8:22 AM M82A1 has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 40 of 43 (73800)
12-17-2003 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by M82A1
12-17-2003 12:48 PM


I'm honestly confused here. Are you suggesting because of the threat of overpopulation, we need to kill more people?
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by M82A1, posted 12-17-2003 12:48 PM M82A1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by M82A1, posted 12-18-2003 8:53 AM Silent H has replied

  
Prometheus
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 43 (74045)
12-18-2003 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by M82A1
12-17-2003 12:48 PM


THat would be a bad idea
A: From what i hear on this end is that, the US population can not support it self becuse of so many of the younger peoples want to go to school and do this or that, and so resultes in smaller family's. (i have no srouce just something i hear)
B: in 20 years Nano Tech should be here
Everlasting life, oh yea we can do it, never aging never getting sick, best of all we will be able to feed all them people and clean up the rundown cities, a great increse in free power from solar energy. oh yea it's a boon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by M82A1, posted 12-17-2003 12:48 PM M82A1 has not replied

  
M82A1
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 43 (74057)
12-18-2003 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Silent H
12-17-2003 2:35 PM


quote:
I'm honestly confused here. Are you suggesting because of the threat of overpopulation, we need to kill more people?
Okay, I'm sorry, I may have used the wrong wording. I do not feel that way. But I do think something has to be done, like limit the amount of children people can have. . . it works in China.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Silent H, posted 12-17-2003 2:35 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 43 of 43 (74105)
12-18-2003 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by M82A1
12-18-2003 8:53 AM


quote:
But I do think something has to be done, like limit the amount of children people can have. . . it works in China.
Hmmmm... I tend to agree, though not quite with the methods China has in place for doing so. Since this is all off topic from this thread, maybe you should open a thread on possible methods to reduce children with minimal affects on human rights. That could be very interesting.
There's already another thread essentially asking if increased homosexuality might very well be a survival strategy to reduce offspring.
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by M82A1, posted 12-18-2003 8:53 AM M82A1 has not replied

  
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