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Author Topic:   Why is evolution so controversial?
zaius137
Member (Idle past 3430 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 948 of 969 (741074)
11-09-2014 1:08 PM


Crickets in a vacuum.
No more to say?

Replies to this message:
 Message 949 by NoNukes, posted 11-09-2014 1:23 PM zaius137 has not replied
 Message 953 by sfs, posted 11-09-2014 7:56 PM zaius137 has replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 3430 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 954 of 969 (741139)
11-10-2014 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 952 by sfs
11-09-2014 7:48 PM


Re: A simpler calculation
quote:
Simple is good. Let's use a cartoon organism. It has a mutation rate of 1x10^-9/bp/gen and a genome of 1 billion base pairs, so on average there is 1 mutation per generation. Half of its mutations are single-base substitutions, and half are large indels. Let's look at a copy of the genome from each branch just one generation after they split. In that 1 generation, one copy acquired one single-base substitution. The other copy acquired an insertion of 10 million base pairs. As a result, the genomes now differ by 10,000,001 base pairs, or just over 1%.
Do you read any of my citations? Think average...
This would be a problem if mutation rates were as simple as you think they are. From my citation:
Mutation Rate = # of mutations observed [30] (# of experimental lines [198]) x (average # of generations [339]) x (average # of base pairs sequenced [~21,000])
The citation I showed you directly counted base pairs in the indel over an average of measurements. Mutation rates are considered in the citation as averages. One case won’t cut it.
Examining the DNA sequences from their experimental animals (a total of over 4 million base pairs!), and comparing them with the controls, turned up a total of 30 mutations.
17 of these were insertions or deletions ("indels')
◦ 7 in exons all but 2 of which produced frameshifts and a premature STOP codon.
◦ 10 in introns or between genes
13 of these were single base substitutions ("point" mutations)
◦ 3 in exons : one "silent" producing a synonymous codon; two that changed the encoded amino acid.
◦ 10 in introns or between genes
I hope most who read this got over the indel being counted as one mutation a few posts back
Calculating Mutation Rate
From these results I have pooled their data to calculate an approximate rate at which spontaneous mutations occur throughout the genome.
Mutation Rate = # of mutations observed [30] (# of experimental lines [198]) x (average # of generations [339]) x (average # of base pairs sequenced [~21,000])
yielding a rate of 2.1 x 10-8 mutations per base pair per generation.
The total C. elegans genome contains some 108 base pairs so this tells us that two new germline mutations occur somewhere in each of C. elegans's two haploid genomes in each generation.
http://users.rcn.com/...Mutations.html#MeasuringMutationRate
It is always important to read citations when continuing an argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 952 by sfs, posted 11-09-2014 7:48 PM sfs has not replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 3430 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 955 of 969 (741140)
11-10-2014 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 952 by sfs
11-09-2014 7:48 PM


The real world....
Where do you get The other copy acquired an insertion of 10 million base pairs (sfs)
Most indels in coding regions are 10 million bp long???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 952 by sfs, posted 11-09-2014 7:48 PM sfs has not replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 3430 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 956 of 969 (741141)
11-10-2014 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 953 by sfs
11-09-2014 7:56 PM


Re: sfs in a vacuum.
quote:
Zaius asked why it was dumb to just add up the unique sequence from each species to get the total divergence. Here's why. Consider two sequences, each 20 bp long:
Ask the authors of the papers claiming that you can add indels to divergence. That is not going on anyway read the paper.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 953 by sfs, posted 11-09-2014 7:56 PM sfs has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 968 by Taq, posted 11-17-2014 5:47 PM zaius137 has not replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 3430 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 957 of 969 (741184)
11-10-2014 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 953 by sfs
11-09-2014 7:56 PM


Re: Crickets in a vacuum.
Another look at your example.
Zaius asked why it was dumb to just add up the unique sequence from each species to get the total divergence. Here's why. Consider two sequences, each 20 bp long:
----------ACGGTTCCGATTTTTTTTTT
CCCCCCCCCCACGGTTCCGA----------
The dashes are sequence that doesn't exist in that copy. 10 out of the 20 bp in each sequence are identical and ten are different. 50% of the sequence in each is unique to that copy (e.g. represents an insertion in its lineage). If we add up the fraction of unique sequence in both, we conclude that they have 0% of their bases in common, even though they are 50% identical.
It looks to me as if you are comparing 30 bp with 2 indels. Your comparison is biased because you compare 20 bp on one side then 20 bp on the other. I would think that the comparison here would be 30 bp. The two outside indels are not in the same frame of your comparison.
Just trying to understand the reasoning here.

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 Message 953 by sfs, posted 11-09-2014 7:56 PM sfs has not replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 3430 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 959 of 969 (741370)
11-11-2014 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 958 by New Cat's Eye
11-11-2014 12:25 PM


Re: Any real evidence for evolution, point on point.
quote:
How easily can you keep up with this chimp?
That is simply amazing And this was not speeded up was it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 958 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-11-2014 12:25 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 3430 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 964 of 969 (741481)
11-12-2014 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 963 by tsig
11-12-2014 4:22 PM


Belly up to the bar...
Great post... Cheers!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 963 by tsig, posted 11-12-2014 4:22 PM tsig has not replied

  
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