There is some question about whether Lincoln was a Christian, he may have been despite the ambiguity, but even Deists in America know their Bible and their Christian theology and appeal to it, as the Deist founders did also.
At the beginning of the war the Northern states had a combined population of 22 million people. The Southern states had a combined population of about 9 million. This disparity was reflected in the size of the armies in the field. The Union forces outnumbered the Confederates roughly two to one.
Let's do the math then
140,000/22 Million = 0.64 % 75,000/9 million = 0.83 %
I'm not seeing much of an argument here. Maybe we should take into account the fact that Kentucky, Maryland, and Delaware were slave holding states?
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
I haven't been able to figure out how you are understanding that quote from Lincoln. He's quoting Jesus, by the way, in case you don't recognize it. The offense in this context would be slavery and the woe would be God's judgment against those by whom it came.
Re: Faith helps show the God she markets is a fool.
The nation suffered horribly from the war, so many families losing loved ones, and I don't think the suffering can be reckoned just in the numbers of soldiers killed. The South was absolutely destroyed and never fully recovered.
(a little fact that is neither here nor there: I had a great great uncle who fought for the north and died in Andersonville prison of disease. He was only about twenty. A cousin inherited his sword. How my brother would love to have it.)
140,000/22 Million = 0.64 % 75,000/9 million = 0.83 %
The numbers as you demonstrate it show that the South was the bigger loser, which is an answer to jar's claim that it was the North.
But the North lost more people. And the south only lost more percentage by two-tenths of a percent.
What you are saying is that if there was an army of 1 million people fighting against just 2 people, and those 2 people killed 480,000 people from the other army while only one of them died, well that would mean that the 2 person army was the biggest loser.
Because they lost 50% of their army with the million-man army only lost 48% of theirs.
My point way back there already was that the percentage of what was lost is what matters, not the absolute numbers, because there was such a discrepancy in the size of the populations. By that more reasonable way of looking at it the losses were roughly equal.
The North had more than twice the population of the South: 22 million to 9 million.
Their army was roughly twice the size of the South's.
The South lost roughly half the number the North did, or about the same percentage.
Jar said the North lost more. He was wrong.
how I remember the conversation, I don't have the patience to go back and review it right now.
I do not doubt her claim at all but think it would be educational to see what that would say about the God she attempts to market.
First some basics.
Let's look at deaths. Recent figures point to about 140,000 Union combat deaths and 75,000 Confederate combat deaths.
So about twice as many folk opposing slavery died in combat as those alleged under Faith's scenario to be supporting slavery.
Slightly more Union soldiers died from causes (disease, starvation) other than combat than Confederate soldiers.
Based on those figures it would seem more likely the US Civil War was an example of God's Wrath for opposing slavery than for supporting slavery.
But there is more.
Only about 20% of Southerners actually owned slaves, maybe one out of three families. Based on and the fact that those wealthy enough to own slaves could hire folk to fight for them or were considered officers and so received better food, clothing, shelter and care than the average grunt it seems almost all of the folk that died never owned slaves.
So what does all that say about God's Wrath? Well for starters it says kill twice as many folk that opposed slavery as supported slavery and kill four to ten non-slave owners for every slave owner.
Doesn't sound like a very smart God.
Which is larger, 140,000 or 75,000?
Sure, just as when it comes to discussing the Bible you can try to avoid facing facts, but the facts remain.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
I have not said one word in favor of the idea that the numbers killed had anything to do with how God judged the two sides. That's the theory of others here, and I eventually said I don't think the numbers can tell us that.
I've been talking about relative losses and to lose a higher percentage of your population is a greater loss, therefore the South sustained a greater loss than the North, in contrast with jar's comparison of the absolute numbers..
And if you will read the WHOLE thread you'll find answers to the rest of your insulting and blasphemous nonsense.