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Author Topic:   Black Holes Don't Exist
zaius137
Member (Idle past 2722 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 30 of 174 (741292)
11-11-2014 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
09-25-2014 8:28 AM


Why is the hole black... Because we like it that way.
quote:
Black holes don't exist, or at least so says physics professor Laura Mersini-Houghton in a paper submitted to the non-peer reviewed online journal ArXiv.

I expected a prediction like this was coming from quantum physics. Quantum mechanics never got over the fact that it could not explain a black hole, so now it must destroy the concept. Next comes claims that quantum gravity is fact.

Well I guess QM pulled off the deception of the Higgs Boson, what can stop it now?

The darkest days of science are yet to come.

“Is science chasing truth from reality or is science trying to remake reality?”

quote:
“Dr. Max Tegmark, a cosmologist and professor of physics at MIT, told The Huffington Post in an email. "It's great to see numerical calculations being done, but the results disagree with many published findings, and this might be because of incorrect assumptions.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...s-dont-exist_n_5885940.html

Say that again Prof so everyone can hear it…


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 09-25-2014 8:28 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Colbard, posted 11-12-2014 7:49 AM zaius137 has replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 2722 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 51 of 174 (741459)
11-12-2014 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Colbard
11-12-2014 7:49 AM


Re: Black holes discovered
quote:
We have finally discovered the black holes, in between the left and right ears of science.

This is the fruit of pure materialistic science… It is no longer what we observe, it is only what we think we observe.

This is why Einstein disliked quantum physics, it is a mathematical construct without any realistic modeling. The math can lead you to the truth only when viewed from reality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Colbard, posted 11-12-2014 7:49 AM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Colbard, posted 11-13-2014 6:12 AM zaius137 has not replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 2722 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 62 of 174 (741717)
11-14-2014 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Son Goku
11-13-2014 10:37 AM


Re: Black Holed theory
quote:
In modern physics, antimatter and dark matter interact with and cause spacetime curvature just as much as normal matter.

In the case of dark matter, the interaction is dark, at least in understanding. (the WIMP)

quote:
There is something "behind" matter in modern physics and that is the quantum fields.

Or active imagination…

quote:
That said, quantum fields are extremely complicated objects, they are not "energy" or "elements". As I've said before on these forums, the everyday object they most closely resemble is a spring mattress.

Similar to aether… wasn’t that a scaler field?

According to ancient and medieval science, aether (Greek: αἰθήρ aithēr[1]), also spelled æther or ether, also called quintessence, is the material that fills the region of the universe above the terrestrial sphere.
wiki

quote:
Matter is a result of quantum fields being excited locally, but not generally. That is, if a small part of the field in one region is energetic, we get a particle. If the whole field were full of energy we'd get what are known as field states, which don't really resemble matter.

“Aristotle, the most famous of the early Greek philosophers, didn't agree with the idea of atoms. In the fourth century BC he taught that all matter is composed of different combinations of four elements earth, air, fire, and water. “ http://coe.kean.edu/phys1000/powerpoint/cpch11-14.pdf

Edited by zaius137, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Son Goku, posted 11-13-2014 10:37 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Son Goku, posted 11-14-2014 6:38 AM zaius137 has replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 2722 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 63 of 174 (741718)
11-14-2014 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Son Goku
11-13-2014 10:39 AM


Re: Mass and gravity thing
quote:
What ancient society believed this?

Aristotle...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Son Goku, posted 11-13-2014 10:39 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Son Goku, posted 11-14-2014 6:40 AM zaius137 has not replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 2722 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 67 of 174 (741751)
11-14-2014 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Son Goku
11-14-2014 6:38 AM


Re: Black Holed theory
quote:
In the ancient greek version it wasn't specified enough to know what type of field it could be, or if it was a field.
The Aether of the 19th century couldn't be a scalar, since it was meant to carry the Electric and Magnetic fields which are vectors. It also wasn't a field, since that is exactly the idea it aimed to replace/make unnecessary.

But the Higgs field is scaler and just as arbitrary as far as aethers go. Greeks did not know about electric and magnetic fields.

quote:
A vague sentence with no content, do you have a specific criticism? You can say silly leading sentences like this with anything.

My apology, participants never use vague language in this forum. This is particularly true of your language. i do not wish to shock anyone.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Son Goku, posted 11-14-2014 6:38 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Son Goku, posted 11-14-2014 12:18 PM zaius137 has replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 2722 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 72 of 174 (741843)
11-15-2014 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Son Goku
11-14-2014 12:18 PM


Re: Black Holed theory
quote:
(b) There are specific reasons for introducing the Higgs' boson. Which I see from my post history I have explained to you before. So rather than repeat them, could you tell me why you find them lacking.

In regards to the question of mass, how many more mechanisms are there besides the Higgs mechanism (those for gaguge bosons)?

[Given that particular limitation of the Higgs description of mass and the arbitrary nature of the descriptive power it has.]

My objections remain the same regarding all pervasive fields (fields that take on a constant value everywhere). Nothing new under the sun, the original concept coming from the ancients…

Archimedes' says give me a leaver long enough and a place to put it and I will move the world. QF says give us enough free parameters and arbitrary fields to put them in and we will describe the universe.

quote:
The universe is indeed "full" of these fields and they do indeed span the space between stars, with the stars themselves being typically low energy excitations of these fields, like most conventional matter.

I hope you are not implying anything other than a local influence of field theory. Scaling the field theory is fraught with unsolvable problems.

quote:
Matter is a result of quantum fields being excited locally, but not generally. That is, if a small part of the field in one region is energetic, we get a particle. If the whole field were full of energy we'd get what are known as field states, which don't really resemble matter.

Only certain categories of matter. I would assume you do not refer to most normal matter.

And do those field states include vacuum energy?

In my opinion QFT has no inroads into matter. We could cover these one at a time, but I am sure you are familiar with them in detail (things like anti-matter). Forces like gravity… You know all the big stuff.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Son Goku, posted 11-14-2014 12:18 PM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Son Goku, posted 11-15-2014 7:14 AM zaius137 has replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 2722 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 78 of 174 (741892)
11-15-2014 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Son Goku
11-15-2014 7:14 AM


Re: Black Holed theory
quote:
For mass generation the standard model has two mechanisms:
(a) The Higgs Mechanism
(b) The potential energy of Strong Force interactions. For example the protons mass is 99% the potential energy of the strong force between the quarks. The internal quarks

(a) The Higgs Mechanism is pure speculation subject to bad assumptions.
(b) Strong force interactions are as of yet not fully described.

quote:
Quantum fields do not take on a constant value everywhere. In fact due to being quantum mechanical, they don't take on definitive values. You are thinking of quantum fields as if they were classical objects.
The addition of quantum mechanics makes quantum fields completely unlike any "ancient" model.

About a constant value:

The Higgs boson or Higgs particle is an elementary particle in the Standard Model of Particle physics. Its main relevance is that it is the smallest possible excitation of the Higgs field[6][7] – a field that unlike the more familiar electromagnetic field cannot be "turned off", but instead takes a constant value almost everywhere. (wiki)

Sorry, almost everywhere….

quote:
[The addition of quantum mechanics makes quantum fields completely unlike any "ancient" model]

With exception of the ultimate comparison. Both are products of a active imagination. My opinion…. I see your opinion.

quote:
No, all normal matter is an excitation of sets of quantum fields.

What about normal matter that has fallen into a black hole?

quote:
Aright here is my only real question to you. Quantum field theory predicts (due to instanton states and anomalies) that the mass of the eta prime meson is 957.67 MeV. This is exactly the mass found in particle accelerators for the eta prime meson.
So my questions are:
(a) If quantum field theory is incorrect or inaccurate, why does it get this mass correct?
(b) Do you have a theory besides quantum field theory which produces an accurate mass for the eta prime?

Great, but now describe gravity in terms of quantum field.

quote:
Quantum field theory predicts anti-matter, so I don't understand how it makes no inroads into anti-matter.

Yes and too much of it, that is one proof that it is a bad apprehension of reality. One of many failures of QFT. One of those “big things” I mention.

quote:
Why does quantum field theory need to describe everything in order to be correct? Yes, it doesn't describe gravity, but is it incorrect in what it does describe?
(Photosynthesis is not a failed theory because it doesn't describe animal digestion)

Theories are only disproved in science. It is not that QFT has not tried and failed to be a universal theory of mass, gravity and their interactions. This thread is a perfect example of the inconsistency of QM in general. Black holes are present in our universe, stars are the only real explainable source of black holes and their numbers. Yet the counter-diction of observed reality comes from calculations of QM.

A man may imagine things that are false, but he can only understand things that are true, for if the things be false, the apprehension of them is not understanding.
Isaac Newton

Photosynthesis is not a failed theory because it is observable, parts require very little speculation , the particle field concept is hypothetical and total speculation.

Edited by zaius137, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Son Goku, posted 11-15-2014 7:14 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Son Goku, posted 11-15-2014 1:23 PM zaius137 has replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 2722 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 81 of 174 (742023)
11-16-2014 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Astrophile
11-15-2014 9:20 AM


Re: Ancient knowledge of matter
quote:
I leave it to you and to other people on this thread to decide whether what you wrote correctly represents the meaning of the original texts.

When I proclaimed atheism, in my ignorance, the interpretation of Romans 1 escaped me also. God gave you observable evidence of Himself in his creation. There is no scientific theory that applies to the description of the universe that is either comprehensive or complete. QFT or Relativity are incomplete descriptions of reality and restricted to either the micro or the macro. God has hidden from us, a underlying reality,that we may not peak in (event horizons prevent that). You see speculation is just that, speculation. Ancient concoctions like the aether and the Higgs boson are artifacts of ignorance.

Colbard is correct.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Astrophile, posted 11-15-2014 9:20 AM Astrophile has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Larni, posted 11-16-2014 1:52 PM zaius137 has replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 2722 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 83 of 174 (742032)
11-16-2014 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Son Goku
11-15-2014 1:23 PM


Re: Black Holed theory
quote:
Quantum Chromodynamics fully describes the strong force,

You are conflating description with a demonstration of underlying axioms. Errors are prevalent in many of its calculations requiring normalization to the particular scale it is being used.

quote:
Let me make this simple, if quantum field theory is speculation and false,

QFT is a speculation that a particle is associated with a field. QFT is not false when applied to its particular scale.

quote:
Or explain how quantum field theory, despite being incorrect speculation in your opinion, manages to obtain that number.

Very good, now describe the gravitational field particle relationship.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Son Goku, posted 11-15-2014 1:23 PM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Son Goku, posted 11-16-2014 2:48 PM zaius137 has replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 2722 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 84 of 174 (742034)
11-16-2014 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Larni
11-16-2014 1:52 PM


Re: Ancient knowledge of matter
quote:
Has been found. Click here

No it hasn’t… look here…. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/speculation?s=t


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Larni, posted 11-16-2014 1:52 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Theodoric, posted 11-16-2014 2:21 PM zaius137 has replied
 Message 90 by Larni, posted 11-17-2014 6:33 AM zaius137 has not replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 2722 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 87 of 174 (742095)
11-16-2014 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Son Goku
11-16-2014 2:48 PM


Black reality...
quote:
I never claimed QFT describes gravity, so why would I describe it? Secondly nobody knows how gravity works on a quantum scale, so I couldn't. I can't come up with quantum gravity on a forum post.

I know there is no solution to the quantum gravity problem. If particle field theory were consummate as stated, there would be a definable direction to a solution of quantum gravity. QFT theory must yield to Relativity in the macro universe, that being the better way to understanding.

quote:
What I am arguing against is your claim that QFT is ignorant speculation and that its assumptions have not being demonstrated. I disagree with this, because QFT seems to describe matter well. Particularly the quantum field theory known as the Standard Model. If QFT is speculation how does it get the correct mass for the eta prime?

I never claimed QFT is “ignorant” speculation. For the small scale, it has had great success. Although QFT will never provide a explanation for unpredicted nuances, like the production of mesons when probing the strong force (determined from observations). I am sorry for your discomfort when someone portrays a demurral of skepticism, QFT being a life’s profession. Discomfort is a normal reaction to such.

But particle field is speculation none the less.

You have already admitted that particle field paradigm has it’s limitations.

My perspective is an underlying symmetry to the universe, a simple extrapolation from the existence of calculable entities, demonstrates to me the existence of a universal mind. I hope there is an agreement about the preceding statement at some level, either symmetry or God. If one could exist without the other.

quote:
Could you just answer the question in bold, instead of asking me to do something nobody knows, nor that I ever claimed was possible?

It is that underlying symmetry and the implication thereof.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Son Goku, posted 11-16-2014 2:48 PM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Son Goku, posted 11-17-2014 5:41 AM zaius137 has replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 2722 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 88 of 174 (742096)
11-16-2014 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Theodoric
11-16-2014 2:21 PM


Re: Ancient knowledge of matter
quote:
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

Do the facts demonstrate a zero spin boson exhibiting a scalar pervasive field?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Theodoric, posted 11-16-2014 2:21 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Theodoric, posted 11-17-2014 10:09 AM zaius137 has replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 2722 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 92 of 174 (742134)
11-17-2014 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Son Goku
11-17-2014 5:41 AM


Re: Black reality...
quote:
Quantum Fields can bend and curve spacetime under General Relativity without the theory breaking or anything going wrong mathematically. In fact this is the current theory of physics:
The standard model quantum field theory (with its fourteen fields) living in four dimensional spacetime with the stress-energy of the fields distorting the spacetime as described by general relativity.

You may be describing the magic kingdom here perfectly. Exactly where are the fourteen fields of quantum field theory incorporated in a field equation? You might show how the Higgs field fits into a stress-energy tensor.

Or are you saying if you step back far enough and just assume all matter fits into a particle/field, by reason of tautology, the classical universe is the quantum universe.

quote:
Quantum gravity refers to any theory where spacetime/gravity itself is quantum mechanical. In current theories of physics spacetime/gravity is classical. Quantum Fields however interact perfectly well with classical spacetime.

Only at the very small scales. Quantum fields are local (if the particle field hypothesis is even correct).

I know what Quantum gravity refers to, a failed paradigm.

quote:
Can you explicitly say what this is. Again I have done research into the Strong Nuclear force and I am not aware of this problem. Could you say what mesons in what probings/experiments?
Maybe when you actually explicitly state a problem, I might get uncomfortable and I can avail of your free psychoanalysis. Until then, I'm waiting for you to actually state a problem.

Frankly, quantum mechanical nuances are just a curiosity to me, some of the particulars are obscure to individuals like me who are not wrapped in its mathematics.
Here is a particular you might expose here… please do not bore us with in depth opacity.

http://www.livescience.com/...cays-standard-model-babar.html

now show us your stuff….

quote:
So the reason that the eta prime has a mass of 957.67 MeV is because of:
"The underlying symmetry and implications there of".
Can you show how an underlying symmetry and its implications leads directly to a mass of 957.67 MeV for the eta prime?
I will be interested to see this, as in conventional physics, that is quantum chromodynamics, the eta prime is unusually heavy explicitly because there is no underlying symmetry associated with it. A phenomena originally known as the U(1) anomaly.

I love quantum double talk, the answer is usually right and wrong at the same time. First there is a underlying symmetry then that symmetry does not apply. This is more like a religion than a religion. And no I would not even attempt a direct proof of a mass of 957.67 MeV… although given time I would find it in the research. The same as you would, only you could understand the contradictions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Son Goku, posted 11-17-2014 5:41 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Son Goku, posted 11-17-2014 1:48 PM zaius137 has replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 2722 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 94 of 174 (742140)
11-17-2014 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Theodoric
11-17-2014 10:09 AM


Re: Ancient knowledge of matter
quote:
You do not get this debate thing do you?

Maybe you can teach me something?

quote:
Since you like to be all mysterious and cagey let me cut to the chase. You imply the higgs boson is just speculated. Can you address the evidence presented by the worlds leading physicists that it exists, and show us how they are wrong?

Today, Ian Low at Argonne National Laboratory in Illinois and a couple of buddies comb through the data in an attempt to throw some light on this question. Their conclusion is that the data is consistent with at least two other particles that are not the standard Higgs boson. http://www.technologyreview.com/...r-say-particle-physicists
 

I am not the only one who doubts the Higgs is real. Not only the particle but the action of the Higgs mechanism. It could be the Higgs is a artifact of statistical error.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Theodoric, posted 11-17-2014 10:09 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Theodoric, posted 11-17-2014 3:04 PM zaius137 has not replied

  
zaius137
Member (Idle past 2722 days)
Posts: 407
Joined: 05-08-2012


Message 95 of 174 (742149)
11-17-2014 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Son Goku
11-17-2014 1:48 PM


Re: Black reality...
quote:
Okay, for once I will just answer the question directly.

Thanks for the tensor. The problem I have with you simply adding it as a stress-energy tensor to the relativity field equations is not correct. Here is some speculation on the matter:

quote:
The Higgs field is a quantum field that is described by quantum mechanics (more precisely, quantum field theory). General relativity is a classical theory that is not compatible with quantum mechanics. Therefore, as far as I know, you cannot describe the Higgs field in general relativity in any useful way.https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/inertial-mass-gravitational-mass-and-the-higgs.335546/

Also Assumptions about the Higgs contribution to stress-energy hinges on if that particle is real at all. Trying to get any real contribution from an arbitrary field with a particle of suspicious existence is impossible. It is not provable, thus not science, at best a speculation.

Like all speculation (especially about the Higgs which is a chain of many speculations) you can get it to work one way or the other mathematically but the proof is impossible.

One bad assumption can lead to another bad assumption, black holes don’t exist right? So says the QM.

quote:
Why does locality imply they only interact sensibly on small scales? Quantum fields are known to give the correct gravitational fields on large scales, it's actually at small scales that they might be incorrect, although no experiment can probe length scales that small as of 2014.

What does that mean? is this another case of it is right and wrong?

quote:
So I am to explain this to you and "show my stuff" without going into detail. Fair enough.
The problem you are referring to was later disproved:
http://cds.cern.ch/...d/1456302/files/LHCb-CONF-2012-022.pdf

I know you could find an objection… Clear as a bell. This is a objection to the earlier finding, maybe it is accurate, maybe it is not. Maybe the entire Standard model is ready for a revamping.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Son Goku, posted 11-17-2014 1:48 PM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Son Goku, posted 11-17-2014 3:28 PM zaius137 has replied

  
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