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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 496 of 2073 (741495)
11-12-2014 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 494 by Rahvin
11-12-2014 6:07 PM


Re: Coyotes call
quote:
She's not lying. She's honestly misguided. She's also perfectly logically consistent.
Unfortunately that's not true. And no, she isn't consistent either. Like most apologists she will say anything to pretend she's right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 494 by Rahvin, posted 11-12-2014 6:07 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 497 by Rahvin, posted 11-12-2014 6:31 PM PaulK has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 497 of 2073 (741497)
11-12-2014 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 496 by PaulK
11-12-2014 6:16 PM


Re: Coyotes call
Unfortunately that's not true. And no, she isn't consistent either. Like most apologists she will say anything to pretend she's right.
Logically consistent. That's not the same as being consistent.
Her position is that her interpretation of her version of the bible is the ultimate authority. If the authority is wrong for absolutely any reason, then the reason is at fault, not the actual authority.
There's nothing logically inconsistent about that. It flows from a premise we don't agree on, but it does flow from that premise.
She'll say anything because everything is suspect except her authority. If her own arguments turn out to be at odds with her authority, she'll doubt her own arguments. She'll doubt her own eyes. She'll doubt any and all scientific instruments you can show her.
She honestly and genuinely believes that her interpretation of her version of the Bible is the ultimate arbiter of fact. If the Bible says pi=3, and she performs the actual measurement herself and finds that it's not, she'll claim that the circle wasn't perfect, or her measuring method was wrong, or even that she hallucinated before she concludes that her authority is mistaken.
I've known her to repeat things she's been told are untrue. I've known her to be called a liar. She's been known to make outrageous and outlandish claims. She's been known to change her arguments. But I've never known her to actually say something that she herself did not believe to be true.
Faith simply believes that the buck stops at the Bible. Again, there's nothing logically inconsistent with that. It's not a reasonable position, but it doesn't make her a liar.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 496 by PaulK, posted 11-12-2014 6:16 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 505 by PaulK, posted 11-13-2014 12:46 AM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 498 of 2073 (741498)
11-12-2014 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 495 by Tangle
11-12-2014 6:15 PM


Re: Coyotes call
Given all that - which is obviously true - why the fuck do we bother arguing with her? That's something I've been wondering about for a while.
Because despite the fact that her position is virtually impossible to change, she's still one of the most well-informed and articulate Creationists who have visited the site.
Because she continues to post, and there's something that drives us to reply when someone says something we disagree with.
Because she makes arguments that sometimes appear easy to falsify, and we just like to argue, even though we know we won;t change her mind.
Because sometimes the audience for the debate is not the participants, but those who lurk and read the debates.
Because some of us just like to argue.
Because sometimes we forget how frustrating it can be.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by Tangle, posted 11-12-2014 6:15 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 501 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 7:12 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 499 of 2073 (741501)
11-12-2014 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 491 by Rahvin
11-12-2014 4:55 PM


Re: Coyotes call
Faith
If you read the Bible and think that it's self-contradictory, then you're reading the Bible wrong.
Whatever the Bible says is true, period. Any apparent contradiction is just your fallen mind using fallen logic.
/Faith
Faith, how'd I do?
Not bad at all, I must say, in all your recent posts about how I argue. A few little things I'd quibble with but the main point is correct. Very good, I'd pin a medal on you if I had one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 491 by Rahvin, posted 11-12-2014 4:55 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 500 of 2073 (741502)
11-12-2014 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 489 by Faith
11-12-2014 4:49 PM


Re: Coyotes call
What God says trumps EVERYTHING else.
God says you're wrong about geology. Also some stuff about how people should give me money.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 4:49 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 502 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 7:20 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 501 of 2073 (741503)
11-12-2014 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 498 by Rahvin
11-12-2014 6:34 PM


Re: Coyotes call
Most of the reasons you give for arguing with me are my own for why I stick it out here. Arguing at EvC is absolutely the most frustrating experience I've ever had, and talk about not ever changing, nobody here has ever changed a single thing in response to anything I've said, why would you expect me to change in response to your arguments? It isn't going to happen. You are as committed to your Source of Truth as I am to mine.
But it is true that once I've said I'm not going to argue science I might as well not be here any more. Maybe that will finally allow me to leave and spare me this endless futility.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 498 by Rahvin, posted 11-12-2014 6:34 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 503 by Rahvin, posted 11-12-2014 8:27 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 502 of 2073 (741504)
11-12-2014 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 500 by Dr Adequate
11-12-2014 7:11 PM


Re: Coyotes call
Sure, just go down to your favorite casino in Vegas and play the Megabucks slot machine, or whatever the modern equivalent is, I haven't been inside a casino in years. If God said it, it will happen.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-12-2014 7:11 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 526 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-13-2014 11:31 AM Faith has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(2)
Message 503 of 2073 (741506)
11-12-2014 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 501 by Faith
11-12-2014 7:12 PM


Re: Coyotes call
Most of the reasons you give for arguing with me are my own for why I stick it out here. Arguing at EvC is absolutely the most frustrating experience I've ever had, and talk about not ever changing, nobody here has ever changed a single thing in response to anything I've said, why would you expect me to change in response to your arguments? It isn't going to happen. You are as committed to your Source of Truth as I am to mine.
I think that's close to the heart of it. We ultimately disagree on what methods are valid to determine what is or is not true.
I believe that the Universe is the ultimate arbiter of fact. Any and all of my hypotheses and beliefs must conform to and should in fact be dictated by actual observation. To convince me to change my mind, simply provide evidence in the form of observations, logically consistent argument, and math as required to show that my belief is less accurate than yours in predicting actual observable reality. I'm always looking for ways to be less wrong in my beliefs, but the wrongness of my beliefs is solely the result of comparison against observation.
You believe that your interpretation of a specific re-translation of a specific collection of specific ancient and often-re-translated and altered texts is the ultimate arbiter of fact. Observation is ultimately meaningless - what matters is your Bible. You might actually observe something that contradicts your Bible, but if so, it would only be a passing curiosity to you - internally you would simply say that either you were mistaken in your observation, or that the truth will be revealed at a later time and that this to-be-reveled truth will be in accordance with the Bible.
If either of us were to actually make an attempt to change the other's mind, we have three choices:
1) play "devil's advocate" and argue from the other's position. I could try to convince you to change your understanding of the Bible using only the Bible as evidence for its own interpretation, for example, or you could try to make me change some view of my own using observation and math and so on.
2) Argue about some topic on which the Bible is silent. Some political discussions, perhaps.
3) Try to convince each other to change our personal standards for determining truth from fiction. You would need to try to convince me that observation is not the ultimate authority, for example, and I'd have to try to convince you that the Bible isn't a good source of information. This would be particularly difficult, as I wouldn't be convinced by appeals to the Bible, and you wouldn't be convinced by appeals to observations which appear to contradict the Bible.
Frustrating as it can be Faith, I do still enjoy debating you (that opinion sometimes changes in the moment, of course). For me, debate is a way to practice my own skills at argument and writing, as well as a way to test my beliefs against people who disagree with me. A false belief should be destroyed.
Remember, I've changed my mind on the God question here on this forum before. Look back to my earliest posts; I wasn't a Creationist or a Biblical literalist, but I was certainly a Christian. I believed in the existence of the Judeo-Christian God, believed that Jesus was His Son who died on the cross to forgive me of all my sins. I occasionally look back to my original positions as a reminder of the most significant time I've ever changed my mind about something.
It's conceivable that it could happen here again.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 501 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 7:12 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 504 by Faith, posted 11-13-2014 12:35 AM Rahvin has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 504 of 2073 (741524)
11-13-2014 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 503 by Rahvin
11-12-2014 8:27 PM


Re: Coyotes call
Your post is interesting but I have to make one complaint. You misrepresent the position of a Bible-believer here:
You believe that your interpretation of a specific re-translation of a specific collection of specific ancient and often-re-translated and altered texts is the ultimate arbiter of fact.
This is simply false and tendentious.
1) "My interpretation" has been honed by thousands of books and sermons so that it is not "mine" but that of the orthodox line of thought on the Bible. I might sometimes take a stab at my own understanding of a text but if the commentaries show a better understanding I will certainly go with that.
2) I don't know what you mean by "a specific re-translation." The Bible I most trust is the King James which is 95% the same translation into English that Tyndale did, and which they also compared with the many copies they had of the Greek and Hebrew texts and with all the other translations in English and all the translations into other languages they had available. You try to make it sound like they had one text and they "re" translated it. No. You have a very wrong idea of the history of Bible transmission.
3) The Greek text was many times copied down the centuries, not "re-translated." Copying does allow for errors to creep in. But they have five thousand Greek manuscripts and fragments of manuscripts of the Bible now for the sake of comparison and those who study those things know how to trace even the errors back to an original source and reconstruct the original text quite reliably.
I regard the Bible we have now as the same Bible that was produced in the first century.
After studying the situation I concluded that the KJV is the most trustworthy, although it needs some updating into modern English, because there is another line of Greek manuscripts that were introduced in the 19th century that are corrupt, possibly even forgeries, that all the modern translations are based on. This is a huge controversy and I've concluded from much reading on the subject that the KJV is based on the most trustworthy line of texts. Nevertheless people do manage to get the same basic truths out of the other versions, there are just some areas where they are untrustworthy. And that's all I want to say about that big flap.
I appreciate your remarks in general though if you hadn't said what you did about the Bible I might have spent some time pondering them to have an answer to some of it, but please don't misrepresent the Bible. That's a form of poisoning the well and trying to discredit my argument before we've even had an argument.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 503 by Rahvin, posted 11-12-2014 8:27 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 542 by Rahvin, posted 11-13-2014 2:45 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 505 of 2073 (741526)
11-13-2014 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 497 by Rahvin
11-12-2014 6:31 PM


Re: Coyotes call
quote:
Logically consistent. That's not the same as being consistent.
Not as different as you seem to think.
Of course logical consistency is a low bar. But one I'm sure that she has violated. In fact I'm sure that she has no problem with contradictions.
While not the best, here's one example:
She claimed that absolutely every part of the Bible is important for doctrine.
In the same conversation I was pointing out that the opening of Luke was at odds with her ideas of how the Bible was written.
If she was logically consistent she couldn't just wave that away - those verses are important. But she did.
I won't count her claims to believe in the Doctrine of Election while openly disagreeing with it, because I'm sure that she doesn't know what that doctrine says. But it is funny.
I would count her claims to believe in Sola Scripture AND Biblical Inerrancy. She doesn't have to acknowledge the contradiction for it to be there.
quote:
Her position is that her interpretation of her version of the bible is the ultimate authority. If the authority is wrong for absolutely any reason, then the reason is at fault, not the actual authority.
That isn't quite right. It would be more true to say that any belief that she really, really, likes is true to her - and any excuse that she makes up to protect those beliefs is also true to her, even if it contradicts other things that she believes.
quote:
She'll say anything because everything is suspect except her authority
Now we get to it. Yes, it's much more about her pride than it is about the Bible. She only cares about the Bible because of her beliefs about it - which are much more important to her than the Bible. But that is true of all inerrantists.
quote:
I've known her to repeat things she's been told are untrue. I've known her to be called a liar. She's been known to make outrageous and outlandish claims. She's been known to change her arguments. But I've never known her to actually say something that she herself did not believe to be true
To the point where she will honestly, truly believe that she didn't say what she said ? Where she will claim that she obviously didn't mean what she obviously did ? She's done that. She will rewrite the history of past interactions to paint herself as being in the right and everyone who disagreed with her as being irrational and wrong.
And, of course, I'm not using quite the same definition of "lying" as you are. I don't require that she knows that what she says is false at that time, only that she has damn well ought to know that what she says is false. It's a more practical standard on a forum like this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 497 by Rahvin, posted 11-12-2014 6:31 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 506 by Faith, posted 11-13-2014 1:00 AM PaulK has replied
 Message 543 by Rahvin, posted 11-13-2014 3:02 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 506 of 2073 (741528)
11-13-2014 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 505 by PaulK
11-13-2014 12:46 AM


Re: Coyotes call
Good luck to Rahvin sorting through all your false accusations and unsupported assertions and misrepresentations.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 505 by PaulK, posted 11-13-2014 12:46 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 507 by Faith, posted 11-13-2014 1:04 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 508 by PaulK, posted 11-13-2014 1:07 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 507 of 2073 (741529)
11-13-2014 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 506 by Faith
11-13-2014 1:00 AM


Re: Coyotes call
And by the way, when Rahvin said "her authority" he didn't mean MY OWN authority, he meant the authority I trust, the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 506 by Faith, posted 11-13-2014 1:00 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 508 of 2073 (741530)
11-13-2014 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 506 by Faith
11-13-2014 1:00 AM


Re: Coyotes call
Of course, I can back it all up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 506 by Faith, posted 11-13-2014 1:00 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 509 by Faith, posted 11-13-2014 1:12 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 509 of 2073 (741531)
11-13-2014 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 508 by PaulK
11-13-2014 1:07 AM


Re: Coyotes call
Sure you can back it all up, with all your original misinterpretations, misunderstandings and the usual craziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 508 by PaulK, posted 11-13-2014 1:07 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 510 by PaulK, posted 11-13-2014 1:21 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 510 of 2073 (741532)
11-13-2014 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 509 by Faith
11-13-2014 1:12 AM


Re: Coyotes call
And there you go throwing false accusations for no good reason. As I said, I can back up everything I say. And if I can't I'll admit it. Whcih is more than you will do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 509 by Faith, posted 11-13-2014 1:12 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 511 by Faith, posted 11-13-2014 1:25 AM PaulK has replied

  
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