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Author Topic:   Quote mining? The Pilbeam quote...
Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 6033 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 1 of 43 (72723)
12-13-2003 4:46 PM


Consider the following quote by David Pilbeam, quoted by Richard Leaky in his 1981 book, The Making of Mankind; as used by certain creationists:
http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/origin_of_man.html
But real experts on the subject are aware that there is no scientific foundation for the claim of human evolution. David Pilbeam, a Harvard University paleoanthropologist, says:
If you brought in a smart scientist from another discipline and showed him the meagre evidence we've got he'd surely say, "forget it; there isn't enough to go on."
This is plagiarized at another anti-evolution site,
’’
The same sentence is wrongly attributed to Leakey himself, here:
http://www.thinkreal.org/evquote.htm
In this forum, Willowtree has quoted Richard Milton quoting this same statement:
http://EvC Forum: Some Evidence Against Evolution -->EvC Forum: Some Evidence Against Evolution
So, what is this quote really saying?
Let's see the quote in context:
Of the primates, the chimpanzee is man's closest relative, while the two other great apes, the gorilla and orang-utan, are slightly more distant evolutionary cousins. The apes and hominids are collectively known as the 'hominoids'. Biologists would dearly like to know how modern apes, modern humans and the various ancestral hominids have evolved from a common ancestor. Unfortunately, the fossil record is somewhat incomplete as far as the hominids are concerned, and it is all but blank for the apes. The best we can hope for is that more fossils will be found over the next few years which will fill the present gaps in the evidence. The major gap, often referred to as 'the fossil void', is between eight and four million years ago.
David Pilbeam comments wryly, 'If you brought in a smart scientist from another discipline and showed him the meagre evidence we've got he'd surely say, "forget it; there isn't enough to go on".' Neither David nor others involved in the search for mankind can take this advice, of course, but we remain fully aware of the dangers of drawing conclusions from the evidence that is so incomplete.
Fortunately, there is quite good evidence regarding the ape-like creatures that lived over fourteen million years ago [...]
A discussion follows of the extensive fossil evidence of dryopithecinces and ramapithecines, biochemical estimates of the date of divergence of humans and chimps, a discussion of the rise of bidpedalism, and David Pilbeam's estimates of the branching times for the various groups of hominoids. That's just chapter three ("Ape-Like Ancestors"). Chapter four ("The Early Hominids") picks up on the near side of the fossil gap referred to in the quote.
Notice the matter of fact assertion of the relatedness of the apes and humans, compared with the qualified warning about making inferences about the precise paths involved in the origin of hominoid sub-groups - the first point is well-confirmed, whereas the second topic had plenty of room for dispute in 1981 (and there remains plenty of room for debate still, of course). Does this passage really question the relatedness of apes and humans? Of course not. Does it call for caution in pin-pointing the timing of the branch off points for the various groups, and in identifying the particular evolutionary paths, Yes.

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-13-2003 5:43 PM Zhimbo has replied

  
Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 6033 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 3 of 43 (72729)
12-13-2003 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Adminnemooseus
12-13-2003 4:54 PM


Thanks...I realized I should have posted in this forum instead immediately after posting.

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 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 12-13-2003 4:54 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

  
Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 6033 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 5 of 43 (72777)
12-13-2003 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Cold Foreign Object
12-13-2003 5:43 PM


Could you, by any chance, actually give what Milton says about the quote, by the way? What does he say that the Pilbeam quote means?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-13-2003 5:43 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-14-2003 5:27 PM Zhimbo has replied

  
Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 6033 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 8 of 43 (73003)
12-15-2003 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Cold Foreign Object
12-14-2003 5:27 PM


Well, then, neither you nor Milton can read very well. The statement is talking about establishing the "how", not the "if", of hominoid evolution. The book, as I indicated, is full of evidence of human evolution, just not enough to fill in the complex inter-relation of groups.
What you are quoting is someone's opinion. What is David Pilbeam's opinion? Clearly his opinion, in 1981, was that the evidence was too sparse to determine the actual evolutionary tree, but more than enough to show that hominoids were all related. You may disagree with the opinion, but you (and Milton) should not quote the opinion as if it meant something else.
Of course, there is also the issue of the quote being more than 20 years old, during which time there have been additional fossil find, including some during the "fossil void" that Leakey refers to. So it seems a little suspect to simply accept that this opinion would stand today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-14-2003 5:27 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-15-2003 9:03 PM Zhimbo has replied

  
Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 6033 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 10 of 43 (73160)
12-15-2003 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Cold Foreign Object
12-15-2003 9:03 PM


quote:
All you can say is that Milton and myself cannot read very well ? This is your reply ? On this basis in this issue I claim victory.
What? That was 1 sentence out of my post! Did you miss the rest of my post? Maybe there's a problem with your computer.
Pilbeam's quote was on the fossil evidence you refer to, but not with reagards to the ISSUE you refer to. The issue Pilbeam is discussing is the reconstruction of the hominoid family tree, not whether all living hominoids have a common ancestor.
Do you agree or disagree with that statement? That is, if you asked David Pilbeam himself, what would he say he was talking about?
Now, what if you asked David Pilbeam himself "Is there sufficient evidence that humans and apes have a common ancestor within the last 10 million years?", what do you think his opinion would be?
Now, since you're quoting Pilbeam's opinion, don't you think you need to reflect Pilbeam's actual opinion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-15-2003 9:03 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-16-2003 9:44 PM Zhimbo has replied

  
Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 6033 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 13 of 43 (73624)
12-17-2003 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Cold Foreign Object
12-16-2003 9:44 PM


I'll ask this again:
Zhimbo asked:
quote:
Now, since you're quoting Pilbeam's opinion, don't you think you need to reflect Pilbeam's actual opinion?
Pilbeam's quoted opinion is NOT about whether humans and apes have a common ancestor. It is about the recontruction of the entire hominoid tree of ancestry in detail.
Milton apparently implies that the opinion is with regards to the former, not the latter. That is not true, if the quote is taken in context. Ape/human ancestry is considered proven beyond reasonable doubt by researchers; the details of ancestry are still being worked out.
So, I ask again:
quote:
Now, since you're quoting Pilbeam's opinion, don't you think you need to reflect Pilbeam's actual opinion?
I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself, but you've never answered this question, and this question is the whole point.
If Milton is quoting Pilbeam's opinion, shouldn't it actually reflect Pilbeam's opinion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-16-2003 9:44 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by NosyNed, posted 12-17-2003 12:16 AM Zhimbo has not replied

  
Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 6033 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 20 of 43 (74154)
12-18-2003 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Cold Foreign Object
12-17-2003 11:31 PM


quote:
I will straight out admit defeat and officially withdraw this evidence as some evidence against evolution.
Yes, yes, I know that's a misleading quotation. Not really my point. I'm just curious what the word "evidence" is supposed to refer to?
Are you implying the the Pilbeam quote is evidence?
Wow.
Other than the fact, that, once again, the quote iss about the details of hominoid evolution, not whether apes and humans had a common ancestor or whether evolution occurs(is this point really so hard to understand?), it's not evidence.
It's somebody opinion. There's a difference. Even if the quote meant what Milton seems to be implying, it still wouldn't be evidence.
If you want to talk about evidence, then talk about the evidence, not someone's cute, secondhand joke about the evidence.
And, finally, once again: If Milton is quoting Pilbeam's opinion, shouldn't it actually reflect Pilbeam's opinion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-17-2003 11:31 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-19-2003 9:28 PM Zhimbo has not replied

  
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