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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 347 of 675 (741437)
11-12-2014 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 346 by Phat
11-12-2014 10:56 AM


Re: Choice Or Nah?
You keep returning to "communion".
How does someone know when they are in communion with God and not just a bad burrito or Satan?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Phat, posted 11-12-2014 10:56 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by Phat, posted 11-12-2014 11:08 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 348 of 675 (741438)
11-12-2014 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 337 by ramoss
06-16-2014 7:06 PM


Re: Believe It or Not
ramoss writes:
Gosh, you are talking a lot about what God could or could not do.
In absence of evidence and real world data, anything can be claimed.
But, can you show those claims are true?
Truth cannot be proven in an evidence-based experiment. Truth can be discussed and shown through our actions, although even then our actions only show our own character.
At best we can claim communion of our character with God/Jesus, but this is likely insufficient to sway a non believer.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by ramoss, posted 06-16-2014 7:06 PM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by jar, posted 11-12-2014 11:04 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 349 of 675 (741439)
11-12-2014 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 348 by Phat
11-12-2014 11:01 AM


Re: Believe It or Not
You keep returning to "communion".
How does someone know when they are in communion with God and not just a bad burrito or Satan?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Phat, posted 11-12-2014 11:01 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 350 of 675 (741441)
11-12-2014 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 347 by jar
11-12-2014 10:58 AM


Re: Choice Or Nah?
jar writes:
You keep returning to "communion".
How does someone know when they are in communion with God and not just a bad burrito or Satan?
I am not sure if we can know. We can test each possibility, however. The food that we ingest can be tested for pathogens which could potentially cause hallucinations and fever. As for God and Satan...they are/were initially characters in a book and thus are defined through their attributes written of them.
If ones behavior has similar attributes to said character this makes it more likely...though not certain...that a similar character projects from the individual. Humans can only be judged by their actions, though written intentions and beliefs carry some weight.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by jar, posted 11-12-2014 10:58 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 351 of 675 (741590)
11-13-2014 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 346 by Phat
11-12-2014 10:56 AM


Re: Choice Or Nah?
If those christians who believe that God desires a sort of spiritual communion with us are correct, it would follow that such a God should not interfere with the outcome of human lives through the action of creation...specifically creative foreknowledge.
Do you believe God desires a 'sort of spiritual communion'?
To be fair to free will, however, humans would also have to have a decision to reject Gods offer of communion.
Before we can choose to accept or reject the communion, we have to be able to know what it is that's trying to commune with us.
How do we distinguish?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Phat, posted 11-12-2014 10:56 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by Phat, posted 11-13-2014 4:45 PM Jon has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 352 of 675 (741666)
11-13-2014 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by Jon
11-13-2014 11:47 AM


Knowing God & Knowing Ourselves
Jon writes:
Do you believe God desires a 'sort of spiritual communion'?
Yes. Critics would ask how I even knew what God wanted...and would point out to me that the idea of God that I have in my mind is a far cry from the real thing, however. Acknowledging all of this, I stand by my answer. Yes. God desires communion with everyone.
jon writes:
Before we can choose to accept or reject the communion, we have to be able to know what it is that's trying to commune with us.
Yes, I agree. And I don't buy into the idea that God can become known simply through a one minute prayer and confession. I believe that knowing God is a lifelong endeavor.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by Jon, posted 11-13-2014 11:47 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by jar, posted 11-13-2014 5:15 PM Phat has replied
 Message 354 by Jon, posted 11-13-2014 9:39 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 353 of 675 (741673)
11-13-2014 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by Phat
11-13-2014 4:45 PM


Re: Knowing God & Knowing Ourselves
Yes, I agree. And I don't buy into the idea that God can become known simply through a one minute prayer and confession. I believe that knowing God is a lifelong endeavor.
Kinda like saving Tink? Close you mind real tight and repeat "I believe in communion with Ged; I believe in communion with Ged ..."?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by Phat, posted 11-13-2014 4:45 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by Phat, posted 11-15-2014 11:32 AM jar has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 354 of 675 (741693)
11-13-2014 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by Phat
11-13-2014 4:45 PM


Re: Knowing God & Knowing Ourselves
Jon writes:
Do you believe God desires a 'sort of spiritual communion'?
Yes.
Okay.
So, you believe that 'God should not interfere with the outcome of human lives through the action of creation'? In other words, you think God should stop creating, correct?
jon writes:
Before we can choose to accept or reject the communion, we have to be able to know what it is that's trying to commune with us.
Yes, I agree.
I'm glad you agree.
But now you need to show just how you determine what it is that's trying to commune with us.
Is it God directing our lives to a better purpose?
Is it Satan wishing to mislead us into sin?
Is it today's burrito telling us to have a salad next time?
What is it and how do we know?
I believe that knowing God is a lifelong endeavor.
When does it end, then? How do we know it has ended? When it does end, how do we know we traveled the God path and not the burrito path?
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by Phat, posted 11-13-2014 4:45 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by Phat, posted 11-15-2014 11:28 AM Jon has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 355 of 675 (741882)
11-15-2014 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 354 by Jon
11-13-2014 9:39 PM


Re: Knowing God & Knowing Ourselves
Jon writes:
So, you believe that 'God should not interfere with the outcome of human lives through the action of creation'? In other words, you think God should stop creating, correct?
Not at all. I believe that God is Spirit and that this Spirit creates through humans...thus the spirit of creativity.
But now you need to show just how you determine what it is that's trying to commune with us.
Basically I believe that there are two spirits...two basic flows or vibes, if you will...that run through humanity. There is the Holy Spirit...in communion with God through relationship with Jesus Christ (Whom I believe lives today) and there is the other lineage of spirits which are idolatrous, self serving and troublesome at best. As to how I determine that this is the way it is...I cannot. I believe it and I observe evidence of it through the behavior of others, but I cannot show it nor capture it nor put it in a test tube. It is a belief.
Is it Satan wishing to mislead us into sin?
Just as I cannot prove that there is a Spirit of God(Holy Spirit or spirit of creativity) I cannot prove the same of satan nor can I prove that satan even exists. I will say that veteran police detective who have witnessed gruesome crime scenes or carnage and destruction of humanity often describe the presence of evil in an abstract sense or sensation. It is a figure of speech for humans who deliberately inflict harm upon others. Satan..if satan exists...cannot make anyone do anything. Once a person chooses that path, however, satan may be able to influence them at that point.
Is it today's burrito telling us to have a salad next time?
Indigestion can cause a man agony, but rarely is the cause for any actions more drastic than hurling chunks or running to the bathroom. Wisdom will tell us, however, to have a salad next time.
What is it and how do we know?
We cannot objectively know. We can subjectively believe and know in ourselves and for our own sanity and satisfaction...however objectively it is a belief and nothing more. If it were provable I would pocket that check from James Randi tomorrow.
When does it end, then?
It may end when we die...it may not. We most certainly will either know or not know at that point, in my belief.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Jon, posted 11-13-2014 9:39 PM Jon has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 356 of 675 (741884)
11-15-2014 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 353 by jar
11-13-2014 5:15 PM


Re: Knowing God & Knowing Ourselves
jar writes:
Kinda like saving Tink?
Peter Pan was a story written by a man who wrote from his own imagination. I believe that the Bible(s) were written by men who were not only writing from their own imaginations--though at times they may--but wrote as they were inspired from Holy Communion. In other words I believe--though cannot prove--that they were inspired by God.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by jar, posted 11-13-2014 5:15 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by jar, posted 11-15-2014 11:35 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 357 of 675 (741886)
11-15-2014 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 356 by Phat
11-15-2014 11:32 AM


Re: Knowing God & Knowing Ourselves
And what evidence do you have that J. M. Barrie was not also inspired by God or that Paul was not inspired by Satan?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Phat, posted 11-15-2014 11:32 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by Phat, posted 11-15-2014 11:58 AM jar has replied
 Message 362 by Phat, posted 11-17-2014 9:02 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 358 of 675 (741889)
11-15-2014 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 357 by jar
11-15-2014 11:35 AM


Re: Knowing God & Knowing Ourselves
jar writes:
And what evidence do you have that J. M. Barrie was not also inspired by God or that Paul was not inspired by Satan?
First of all, as we discuss this subject it might be useful to come to a consensus regarding what Godly Inspiration and satanic inspiration would even be. This gets back to our Source versus Content discussion from SI Hayakawas book, Language In Thought & Action.
Both Paul and J.M. Barre likely wrote under their own imagination, We cannot necessarily conclude anything except for the evidence of the writings themselves. Content and context.
I believe that Paul also wrote under the influence and inspiration of the Holy Spirit but there is no real way I can objectively prove this.
(Nor can anyone prove that the early church counsels which validated or repudiated scripture for selection into the Bible were themselves driven by their own vain imaginations,political goals, and cultural influence)
In conclusion, I have no evidence apart from the content of the writings themselves---and even then there needs to be consensus on what Godly influence is and if it can be shown that it is distinct from human imagination.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by jar, posted 11-15-2014 11:35 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by jar, posted 11-15-2014 12:11 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 359 of 675 (741890)
11-15-2014 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by Phat
11-15-2014 11:58 AM


Re: Knowing God & Knowing Ourselves
So women keeping silent in Church, Jesus returning during Paul's lifetime and the temple devoted to Unnamed Gods was intended to be for the God of Abraham (who was pretty well know at the time) were inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by Phat, posted 11-15-2014 11:58 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by Phat, posted 11-17-2014 2:07 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 360 of 675 (742099)
11-17-2014 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by jar
11-15-2014 12:11 PM


Re: Knowing God & Knowing Ourselves
jar writes:
So women keeping silent in Church, Jesus returning during Paul's lifetime and the temple devoted to Unnamed Gods was intended to be for the God of Abraham (who was pretty well know at the time) were inspired by the Holy Spirit?
If by this do you mean do I think that Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit in all of his writings than no, I do not.
Lets examine each scripture in context and see if we can learn together.
jar,in another thread writes:
Although I believe the greatest threat to the US and the world today is fundamental Christianity, particularly Calvinism, I would oppose any attempt to silence them.
I believe that a church has a right to present certain teachings and that the rest of the pew sitters should be quiet during the message. If they disagree with the message, they can approach the Pastor later with their concerns and/or find another church.
Lets examine what Paul said in context:
1 Cor 14:33-35(NIV) writes:
For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
Of course this was in the context of those times, when women were regarded as inferior to men. The Corinthians were also quite arrogant in general, and it is still true that nobody should interrupt a service and speak with no regard for the speaker or the theme of the service. It simply isn't polite.
Jesus returning during Paul's lifetime
This is one example:
1 Thess 4:13-18 writes:
Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.
Some argue that this scripture is symbolic and could happen anytime, though Paul evidently did expect Jesus to return a lot sooner than 2000 years. Paul had a thorn in the flesh as all of us do---a weakness to his character, and in my opinion he was arrogant.
1 Thess 2:13 writes:
And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.
It would be as if you or I claimed that we spoke the rhema word from the Holy Spirit and thus were without error. In my opinion, however, much of scripture is inspired writing, and I believe that God inspires us.
The unknown God
Acts 17:22-28 writes:
Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you. "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'
Though some would say Paul was arrogant again, I believe that what he said to the men of Athens was inspired.
Edited by Phat, : spelling

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by jar, posted 11-15-2014 12:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by jar, posted 11-17-2014 9:01 AM Phat has replied
 Message 369 by jar, posted 11-18-2014 12:51 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 361 of 675 (742107)
11-17-2014 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 360 by Phat
11-17-2014 2:07 AM


Re: Knowing God & Knowing Ourselves
As Paul grew older (and also true of all the early Apostles) they realize that the end of time was not gonna happen as Jesus said it would, during their lifetime.
They had to scramble and change the message they had been marketing. It was one of the first major crisis cause total revision of the shpiel.
I would not call the To the Unknown Gods gambit arrogant but it was definitely inspired. I just see no reason to think it was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
And politeness in church does not seem to related to Paul's position but rather specifically to what women can do. You need to understand the context of Talmudic discourse. I Judaism the service is not led by the Rabbi but by the congregation. It very much a tradition of constant discussion, dispute and argument over meanings often with no resolution.
So if not all that Paul wrote was inspired by the Holy Spirit what criteria should be used to judge what is inspired and what is just bad burrito?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by Phat, posted 11-17-2014 2:07 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by Phat, posted 11-17-2014 9:16 AM jar has replied

  
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