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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 571 of 2073 (741950)
11-15-2014 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 557 by Colbard
11-15-2014 8:52 AM


Re: Bristles
I have never believed the methods claimed for dating materials is correct, mainly because I had a coin from 1958 which dated at 2500 years old by radio carbon dating.
Others have already pointed out the impossibility and absurdity of that claim. I would add to that the extreme probability of a non-researcher walking into a lab to have such a procedure performed on a whim. And that the lab technicians wouldn't have explained to that layman why such a test would be absurd. And that that layman would still insist on the test despite the non-trivial cost of having that test performed.
If you are telling the truth, then describe to us the specifics of that test. Be as specific as you can be, including when you had that test performed, by what lab, and how much it had cost you.
Instead, I believe that you are merely repeating a creationist claim that you had heard or read and are falsely claiming it to be your own personal experience. In that case, what is the source of your claim? Please be very specific so that we can track it down.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 557 by Colbard, posted 11-15-2014 8:52 AM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 572 by Coyote, posted 11-15-2014 7:49 PM dwise1 has not replied
 Message 573 by Colbard, posted 11-15-2014 8:41 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 572 of 2073 (741954)
11-15-2014 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 571 by dwise1
11-15-2014 6:37 PM


Re: Bristles
It would be interesting to see the laboratory reporting sheets for the coin.
Wonder what method of pre-treatment they used.
And if it is 1958 they should have had to take into account the bomb effects as well.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 571 by dwise1, posted 11-15-2014 6:37 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3391 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 573 of 2073 (741959)
11-15-2014 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 571 by dwise1
11-15-2014 6:37 PM


OC
It was done by the science class at school, where numerous items the students had were sent away to be tested, and the results given to the class.
The coin was an Australian penny which I found under the neighbor's demolished house, if you are saying that embedded dirt have given the false reading, I would agree. But dating methods are wrong because the earth is only about 6000 years old. But in your reckoning the whole world cannot be wrong and deceived can it? That is just not possible is it? That question will make you really uncomfortable...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 571 by dwise1, posted 11-15-2014 6:37 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 574 by Coyote, posted 11-15-2014 9:20 PM Colbard has not replied
 Message 575 by Theodoric, posted 11-15-2014 9:55 PM Colbard has not replied
 Message 576 by NoNukes, posted 11-16-2014 12:46 AM Colbard has not replied
 Message 577 by dwise1, posted 11-16-2014 3:37 AM Colbard has not replied
 Message 579 by Phat, posted 11-16-2014 7:21 AM Colbard has not replied
 Message 581 by RAZD, posted 11-16-2014 8:25 AM Colbard has not replied
 Message 585 by Capt Stormfield, posted 11-16-2014 11:06 AM Colbard has not replied
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 574 of 2073 (741966)
11-15-2014 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 573 by Colbard
11-15-2014 8:41 PM


Re: Dated coin
It was done by the science class at school, where numerous items the students had were sent away to be tested, and the results given to the class.
When you do a radiocarbon date, you get back from the laboratory a data sheet that gives all the information about the sample and the results of the testing. Where is that data sheet? What was the name of the laboratory used? In what year was the test supposedly done?
One of those items is the method of pre-treatment. Because radiocarbon dating is used on once-living materials, the methods of pre-treating are geared toward those. For example, shell is treated with an acid etch to remove your fingerprints and modern carbon absorbed on the sometimes powdery surface of old shell.
I doubt that there is any standard pre-treatment for a penny, Australian or otherwise.
If the test was done before about 1990 or so, it was probably not done using the AMS technique which can date very small samples. We were submitting shell samples weighing 50 or more grams prior to that time; that's a far greater weight than a penny, Australian or otherwise, and shell at least contains once-living material. Your penny would have had such a tiny amount of carbon in it, and the amount of C14 in modern carbon is about 1 part per trillion.
Sorry, but I don't believe a word of this. Perhaps your teacher just pretended to send the penny off to be dated? Or perhaps there were creationists involved in this escapade somewhere?
By the way, I have submitted about 650 radiocarbon samples for dating over nearly 40 years, so I have some familiarity with the subject.
The coin was an Australian penny which I found under the neighbor's demolished house, if you are saying that embedded dirt have given the false reading, I would agree.
Pre-treatment methods are designed to remove that embedded dirt, whether it be on shell or any other material. When pre-treating charcoal or other forms of carbon the pre-treatment methods remove hair roots, humus, and other modern materials.
But there are probably no standard pre-treatment methods for Australian coins because nobody in their right mind would try to radiocarbon date them.
But dating methods are wrong because the earth is only about 6000 years old. But in your reckoning the whole world cannot be wrong and deceived can it? That is just not possible is it? That question will make you really uncomfortable...
No, the question does not make me in the least bit uncomfortable because the claim of 6000 years for the age of the Earth was disproved by early geologists and subsequently by almost every branch of science since then. To claim that all dating methods are wrong means to trash virtually all of science, and if you believed that was true then you'd be living in a cave wearing animal skins--if you could figure out how to kill them and skin them and preserve the skins, which I doubt.
Creationists think that they can overturn those things in science that they don't like and keep those things they do. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. As an example, if you try and change the decay constants to accommodate a 6000 year old Earth you run into endless problems, not the least of which is parbroiling the Earth from releasing the heat of 4.5 billion years in just 6000 years. Even the RATE boys admitted they couldn't account for that little problem.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by Colbard, posted 11-15-2014 8:41 PM Colbard has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 575 of 2073 (741971)
11-15-2014 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 573 by Colbard
11-15-2014 8:41 PM


Re: OC
Was this a religious school?
if you are saying that embedded dirt have given the false reading
I am sure if it was a real lab and there was a real test they would have removed all the dirt.
But dating methods are wrong because the earth is only about 6000 years old.
And there is the rub. You know the TRUTH, so anything counter to that therefore is wrong.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by Colbard, posted 11-15-2014 8:41 PM Colbard has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 576 of 2073 (741982)
11-16-2014 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 573 by Colbard
11-15-2014 8:41 PM


Re: OC
The coin was an Australian penny which I found under the neighbor's demolished house, if you are saying that embedded dirt have given the false reading, I would agree.
So your story was pointless.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by Colbard, posted 11-15-2014 8:41 PM Colbard has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(5)
Message 577 of 2073 (741985)
11-16-2014 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 573 by Colbard
11-15-2014 8:41 PM


Re: OC
It was done by the science class at school, where numerous items the students had were sent away to be tested, and the results given to the class.
That is even crazier than the idea of you walking into a lab on a whim. What was the objective of that lesson? What did the teacher want you to learn? Didn't your teacher first discuss carbon-dating and what kinds of samples it works with? If so, then why didn't you realize that it wouldn't work with a penny?
Or was this an example of your proposed approach to learning in which the teacher teaches you nothing and just lets you stumble about like blind sheep in the hope that you will eventually learn something by stupid blind luck? Well, we can see how well that worked for you.
This just raises more questions. What kind of school was this class in? A fundamentalist school that teaches "creation science"? Or was it just that the teacher was a creationist and was sneaking this nonsense into the class? That has happened a number of times here in the USA, but here that's been found to be unconstitutional. In fact, "creation science" was deliberately created as a deception in order to sneak it past the US court system, since Epperson v Arkansas (1968) had led to the striking down of the 1920's "monkey laws" forbidding the teaching of evolution, which led to subsequent court decisions that forbad barring the teaching of evolution for religious reasons. Then the "creation science" deception's usage expanded to proselytizing and the US creationist exported to other countries, such as Australia. I wish to extend our sincerest apologies for that.
One of the dishonest tricks that creationists use to try to "disprove" radio-dating is by submitting samples for testing that they deliberately choose because they know in advance that those samples will give bad results. For example, there was a video of Kent Hovind talking about his having submitted a completely mineralized dinosaur fossil for carbondating and getting the resultant age of 50,000 years instead of millions of years. Well, for one thing, the half-life of C14 is short, so the oldest age that you can possibly get would be 50,000 years -- it would be like trying to weigh a 2000 lb car with a bathroom scale that goes up to 400 lb; everything that weighs more than 400 lb will register a weight of 400 lb (duh?). Carbon-date coal and you will get 50,000 years, not because the coal is only that old but rather because that is the maximum age that the technique can yield. The second thing is that that completely mineralized dinosaur fossil contains no carbon! Just as your coin contained no carbon (barring its containing steel, but even that would be problematic for carbon-dating).
And I am still having problems with the cost of those tests, especially now that it turns out that either the school or the teacher himself had paid for the testing of multiple items (20 to 30 items, I would assume), many if not most of them totally inappropriate for carbon-dating (your coin being a prime example) making that expense a complete waste of money and of the lab's time.
You absolutely have to give us the complete story on that!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by Colbard, posted 11-15-2014 8:41 PM Colbard has not replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3391 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 578 of 2073 (741989)
11-16-2014 5:38 AM


It just proves we should not teach evolution in schools, because of ALL the things that went wrong and were dubious in that simple exercise, the lack of professionalism, the biased teachers, the religious creationists sabotaging the experiment, the lies, the wrong data, the outdated methods, the problems and the reams of examinations that must follow, the requested proofs and evidences now to be met. The panic of professors of science. The school is sinking with all students on board!
Bring the evolution guard in, have these arrested, tested and documented. Oh the essays and reports that have to be written, YOUR PAPERS PLEASE!!
Sounds like communism...wait a minute evolution is their doctrine. Well what do you know, an atheist communist education...
By the way it was a state school with an atheist teacher, who by the way became a Christian soon after. Such a loss to the cause of the red sun.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 583 by jar, posted 11-16-2014 8:55 AM Colbard has not replied
 Message 584 by Theodoric, posted 11-16-2014 9:14 AM Colbard has not replied
 Message 586 by RAZD, posted 11-16-2014 11:29 AM Colbard has not replied
 Message 589 by NoNukes, posted 11-16-2014 12:58 PM Colbard has not replied
 Message 591 by Larni, posted 11-16-2014 1:35 PM Colbard has not replied
 Message 596 by dwise1, posted 11-17-2014 4:08 PM Colbard has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 579 of 2073 (741991)
11-16-2014 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 573 by Colbard
11-15-2014 8:41 PM


Re: OC
.... But in your reckoning the whole world cannot be wrong and deceived can it? That is just not possible is it?
Why would God want to trick us?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by Colbard, posted 11-15-2014 8:41 PM Colbard has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 580 of 2073 (741992)
11-16-2014 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 557 by Colbard
11-15-2014 8:52 AM


time ... and time again ...
Yes, if the earth was that old, that's true. ...
That's what all the objective empirical evidence says ... we can look at various stages of "building the house" and know that the earth is at least as old as those events.
... Personally I go with about 6000 years old. ...
There is a single tree in the White Mountains of California that is over 5,000 years old and still kicking. Standing nearby is a dead "sentinel" that was over 7,000 years old when it died, there is evidence from other trees and remnants that show the world is over 8,000 years old, and there are tree chronologies in Germany and Ireland that show the earth is over 12,000 years old, ... there are lake varves in Japan that show the earth is over 35,000 years old ... and ice layers that show the earth is over 200,000 years old
What you believe is your problem. The earth is old -- very very old -- regardless of your belief or your opinion.
... I have never believed the methods claimed for dating materials is correct, ...
Again this is your problem, reality will continue to exist without your "approval" ... because opinion and belief have shown a remarkable inability to affect reality in any way.
... mainly because I had a coin from 1958 which dated at 2500 years old by radio carbon dating. ...
Curiously I wasn't aware that coins were living organisms. Can you tell me what part of the coin consumed atmospheric carbon during it's life?
Funny how one can always count on creationists to misuse science to make up fake information that doesn't hold up to scrutiny ... but can fool the gullible.
... Apparently the mistakes in readings are exponential after a few decades back in time. ...
Decay is exponential. We gave known annual layers that anyone can count and use against 14C measurements and find that this validates 14C decay over the period of time where it is applicable -- ~50,000 years.
If "mistakes" were exponential then there would be increasing disagreement between samples with time. Curiously this does not show up in the actual results.
... But there is no sense in arguing here. I'm just letting you know where I'm at.
Ignorance is curable.
Fortunately we don't need to listen to you when we apply scientific knowledge to determining the age of things.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 557 by Colbard, posted 11-15-2014 8:52 AM Colbard has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(7)
Message 581 of 2073 (741993)
11-16-2014 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 573 by Colbard
11-15-2014 8:41 PM


Re: OC
It was done by the science class at school, where numerous items the students had were sent away to be tested, and the results given to the class.
The coin was an Australian penny which I found under the neighbor's demolished house, if you are saying that embedded dirt have given the false reading, I would agree. But dating methods are wrong because the earth is only about 6000 years old. But in your reckoning the whole world cannot be wrong and deceived can it? That is just not possible is it? That question will make you really uncomfortable...
So how much more hogwash are you going to make up and try to pawn off on us?
In case you miss my point, I am calling your bluff on this claim -- I say it is a fabrication.
A rather pointless sad self-serving fabrication.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : clrty

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by Colbard, posted 11-15-2014 8:41 PM Colbard has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 582 of 2073 (741996)
11-16-2014 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 578 by Colbard
11-16-2014 5:38 AM


Hi Colbard,
You're taking the wrong message. People are telling you that your story about dating the penny is self-evidently wrong. No lab would radiocarbon date a penny, and the cost of radiocarbon dating, at least several hundred dollars per sample today, is beyond what a school could afford for a class of 20 or 30 students. Coyote mentioned the lab reports produced for dated samples (here's an example of what one would look like, Sample Report of Radiocarbon Dating Analyses, this one is three pages). The students in your class could not have received lab reports for any items with no carbon content, and in particular there could have been no lab report for radiocarbon dating a penny.
So either you're lying to us, or your teacher was lying to you.
The point you seem to be arguing is that we shouldn't teach subjects that some people are willing to lie about. Doesn't seem like a sound basis for constructing a curriculum.
AbE: I was moderating this thread as Admin, but there hasn't been any need for moderation in a couple weeks, so I'm returning to normal participation.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : AbE.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 578 by Colbard, posted 11-16-2014 5:38 AM Colbard has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 583 of 2073 (741997)
11-16-2014 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 578 by Colbard
11-16-2014 5:38 AM


more fabrication?
By the way it was a state school with an atheist teacher, who by the way became a Christian soon after. Such a loss to the cause of the red sun.
I doubt that even more than your penny story.
By the way, the Australian penny was 97%copper, 2.5%zinc and 0.5% tin which makes your story even less plausible.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 578 by Colbard, posted 11-16-2014 5:38 AM Colbard has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 584 of 2073 (741998)
11-16-2014 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 578 by Colbard
11-16-2014 5:38 AM


Name of school, teacher and approximate date please.
Whether this actually happened is researchable.
This large of an expense would leave behind a record. There will be other science teachers there that can confirm your claims. It won't cost me anything but time to research your outlandish claim.
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 578 by Colbard, posted 11-16-2014 5:38 AM Colbard has not replied

  
Capt Stormfield
Member (Idle past 456 days)
Posts: 428
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


(4)
Message 585 of 2073 (742001)
11-16-2014 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 573 by Colbard
11-15-2014 8:41 PM


Re: OC
You know, most people make up stories that make them look smarter than they actually are. Just sayin'...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by Colbard, posted 11-15-2014 8:41 PM Colbard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 587 by NosyNed, posted 11-16-2014 12:04 PM Capt Stormfield has not replied

  
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