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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 362 of 675 (742108)
11-17-2014 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 357 by jar
11-15-2014 11:35 AM


Re: Knowing God & Knowing Ourselves
jar writes:
what evidence do you have that J. M. Barrie was not also inspired by God or that Paul was not inspired by Satan?
Quite honestly? None.
Again, the reader can examine the writing in question and keep in mind the context. The customs of that time. For instance, if Paul made the comment in todays world about women being silent in church he would likely get called out on it by many people---none of whom would be silent--in or out of church.
As I examine my own beliefs and conscience I am beginning to question the whole idea of scriptural inerrancy. It has been defended many times by many denominations yet it seems like a belief that prevents anyone from wanting to ask questions in order to clarify what their conscience may feel.
You have brought up the idea of logic, reason, and reality a few times before (probably even in this thread) and have said that you believe that humans are charged to try and do what is right. Additionally you have stated that your basic belief is that humans were given the knowledge of the difference and distinction between good and evil and that it was this---rather than the doctrine of Original Sin--that made the most sense in any parable derived from the first chapters of Genesis.
In another topic, I notice how the issue of conscience is being discussed and of how some people may regard personal conscience as a right while others(you perhaps included) regard personal conscience as not only an individual responsibility but as a personal responsibility.
I bring all of this up only to say that as I continue in my own personal growth as a Christian that I am open to understanding what it is that other Christians believe and that this is how I determine what my likely choice of my own personal beliefs will be. Of course, I also spend time in prayer, reading, and meditation.
Now about JM Barrie. Do you have any evidence from his writings that he was inspired by God?
AbE: Lets just ask do you have any evidence that JM Barrie was inspired?
Edited by Phat, : clarification

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

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 Message 357 by jar, posted 11-15-2014 11:35 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 363 of 675 (742109)
11-17-2014 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 361 by jar
11-17-2014 9:01 AM


Re: Knowing God & Knowing Ourselves
jar writes:
I would not call the To the Unknown Gods gambit arrogant but it was definitely inspired. I just see no reason to think it was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
You bring up an interesting point. How do people know what the difference is between being inspired by the Holy Spirit and being simply inspired?
My take on it has simply been similar to what Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart once said about pornography."I know it when I see it." I can agree, however, that perhaps it would be better to discuss these matters by simply using the term "inspired" without having to insist that the issue is as black and white as being inspired by either God or satan.
jar writes:
So if not all that Paul wrote was inspired by the Holy Spirit what criteria should be used to judge what is inspired and what is just bad burrito?
I believe that the criteria should include the intentions of the speaker, the context of where it was said and to whom it was being said, the time and culture within which it was being said, and the consensus of the class and/or readers whom are discussing the writing.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by jar, posted 11-17-2014 9:01 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by jar, posted 11-17-2014 9:32 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 364 of 675 (742110)
11-17-2014 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 363 by Phat
11-17-2014 9:16 AM


Re: Knowing God & Knowing Ourselves
Lets just ask do you have any evidence that JM Barrie was inspired?
Sure, he created a story that has stood the test of time and still brings in royalties and funding to Great Ormond Street Hospital.
That seems a better example of inspired work than anything Paul wrote.
On Inspired by the Holy Spirit you said:
quote:
I believe that the criteria should include the intentions of the speaker, the context of where it was said and to whom it was being said, the time and culture within which it was being said, and the consensus of the class and/or readers whom are discussing the writing.
If we include the intent of the speaker then does that not supersede outside inspiration?
Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed broken quote

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by Phat, posted 11-17-2014 9:16 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by Phat, posted 11-17-2014 10:02 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 365 of 675 (742113)
11-17-2014 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 364 by jar
11-17-2014 9:32 AM


Re: Knowing God & Knowing Ourselves
jar writes:
If we include the intent of the speaker then does that not supersede outside inspiration?
Sure. It only makes logical sense that a speakers intentions represent their motives and inspirations.
You have said before that Paul played fast and loose with the truth.
Some have accused modern Christianity as being largely "Paulianity"...whatever that means. I was taught that Paul was meant to become the "Apostle to the Gentiles"...and see no reason why he was not qualified to be so.
Lets go this direction:
What are the differences between what Paul preached and what Jesus preached? Is their harmony between the two?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by jar, posted 11-17-2014 9:32 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by jar, posted 11-17-2014 10:14 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 366 of 675 (742115)
11-17-2014 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 365 by Phat
11-17-2014 10:02 AM


Re: Knowing God & Knowing Ourselves
What are the differences between what Paul preached and what Jesus preached? Is their harmony between the two?
Stop for a moment.
Remember that there are major differences between what the four Gospels say Jesus preached.
Second, Paul is marketing a religion while Jesus was born, raised and died a Jew.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by Phat, posted 11-17-2014 10:02 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by Phat, posted 11-17-2014 10:37 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 367 of 675 (742118)
11-17-2014 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by jar
11-17-2014 10:14 AM


Re: Knowing God & Knowing Ourselves
Stop for a moment.
OK. Context context context.
Remember that there are major differences between what the four Gospels say Jesus preached.
Second, Paul is marketing a religion while Jesus was born, raised and died a Jew.
I suppose we should determine what it is we want to say ourselves, in discussing this. We are both Christians yet we are in different clubs. We both love Jesus and, as far as I know, believe that He was raised from the Dead...though we have no way of proving this. Perhaps I am more a fan of Paul than you are.
And about this "marketing". Could it not be said that Jesus, in wanting people to follow Him, was also starting a religion?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by jar, posted 11-17-2014 10:14 AM jar has replied

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 Message 368 by jar, posted 11-17-2014 10:41 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 368 of 675 (742120)
11-17-2014 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 367 by Phat
11-17-2014 10:37 AM


Jesus was a Jew talking to Jews about Jewish behavior
And about this "marketing". Could it not be said that Jesus, in wanting people to follow Him, was also starting a religion?
No. Jesus was always talking to Jews about Jewish issues, beliefs and general behavior.
Again, investigate Talmudic Discourse to understand what Jesus was doing in the context of Judaism.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title
Edited by jar, : fix spelling in sub-title

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 369 of 675 (742250)
11-18-2014 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by Phat
11-17-2014 2:07 AM


An interesting example of women speaking during a service.
Phat writes:
I believe that a church has a right to present certain teachings and that the rest of the pew sitters should be quiet during the message. If they disagree with the message, they can approach the Pastor later with their concerns and/or find another church.
There was a Muslim prayer service just recently at the National Cathedral that was interrupted by a female Christian heckler.
quote:
Nevertheless, the carefully scripted ceremony was marred once when one well-dressed, middle-age woman in the audience suddenly rose and began shouting that America was founded on Christian principles. . . . Leave our church alone! She was swiftly ushered out by security aides, and the service continued.
Source
Beside the fact that the woman was factually wrong was it wrong based on what Paul is likely to have written and your personal beliefs?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by Faith, posted 11-18-2014 3:21 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 370 of 675 (742282)
11-18-2014 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by jar
11-18-2014 12:51 PM


Re: An interesting example of women speaking during a service.
She's my hero, we need more like her. Like Ian Paisley who stood up in European Parliament, of which he was a member, to shout down Pope John Paul as the Antichrist, because the members had not been allowed to vote on his being invited to speak. I hope for much more of this.
Of course the National Cathedral has already been sullied by the rites of Baal many times, since it's "ecumenical" in spirit. I remember particularly G W Bush's travesty of a prayer service for the nation after 9/11 when speakers included a rabbi, an imam, an RC priest among others. I've written many times at my blog about how "ecumenical" prayer for the nation can only bring God's judgment, a curse rather than God's blessing. How stupid can we get?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 369 by jar, posted 11-18-2014 12:51 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 372 by Taq, posted 11-18-2014 4:30 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 371 of 675 (742285)
11-18-2014 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by Faith
11-18-2014 3:21 PM


Re: An interesting example of women speaking during a service.
Ah but Faith, the National Cathedral is an Episcopal Church and has Darth Vader as one of the Grotesques.
I imagine you can provide evidence and dates for when rites of Baal were held at the Washington National Cathedral or are just jess making shit up again?
Seems you have heroes in low places.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 370 by Faith, posted 11-18-2014 3:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 372 of 675 (742292)
11-18-2014 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by Faith
11-18-2014 3:21 PM


Re: An interesting example of women speaking during a service.
I've written many times at my blog about how "ecumenical" prayer for the nation can only bring God's judgment, a curse rather than God's blessing. How stupid can we get?
If today's quality of life is a curse, then I say we need to be cursed more often.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by Faith, posted 11-18-2014 3:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 373 of 675 (742293)
11-18-2014 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by Taq
11-18-2014 4:30 PM


Re: An interesting example of women speaking during a service.
Not just quality of life but also morality. Today the typical westerner is far more moral than Jesus.
AbE:
Today we would not say "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" but rather "You can't stone folk period".
Edited by jar, : add morality example.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by Taq, posted 11-18-2014 4:30 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 374 of 675 (742296)
11-18-2014 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 373 by jar
11-18-2014 4:37 PM


Re: An interesting example of women speaking during a service.
Not just quality of life but also morality. Today the typical westerner is far more moral than Jesus.
I am always curious about what time period was so much better than the present, according to the religious right. Go back 100 years and women couldn't even vote, they were discriminated against at the work place, and blacks couldn't eat at the same lunch counter as whites in certain areas. Go back 200 years and people were dying at a young age from diseases that no one really gets anymore thanks to antibiotics and vaccines. Our life expectancy has gone from 45 to 85. Infant mortality has gone from 20% or worse to 1%.
When was this golden age that the religious right keeps talking about?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 375 of 675 (742298)
11-18-2014 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by Taq
11-18-2014 4:56 PM


Re: An interesting example of women speaking during a service.
When was this golden age that the religious right keeps talking about?
Too, regardless of when it was, it is what lead to what we have today.
So if today is so terrible, then perhaps it wasn't so golden after all.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 376 of 675 (742299)
11-18-2014 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by jar
11-18-2014 3:29 PM


Re: An interesting example of women speaking during a service.
Yeah, the Episcopal Church especially in recent times has lost even the pretense of being Christian, but there it is representing Christianity as the nation's religion to people who don't know any better, and I applaud Christine Wieck for her courage. She's lost husband and children recently because she refused to compromise on gay marriage and other "liberal" causes.
I imagine you can provide evidence and dates for when rites of Baal were held at the Washington National Cathedral or are just jess making shit up again?
I think Bush's Baal worship service was two or three days after 9/11. Any time another religion is hosted there is a time of Baal worship. How many over the years, I don't know. But I'm glad somebody finally stood up to protest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by jar, posted 11-18-2014 3:29 PM jar has replied

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