The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance

Faith in what? How could you have faith in something you could not see and could not test for evidence?

LoLWhen it comes to things I can't see or test then Faith is the only other option. You believe, don't believe, are unsure or believe it really doesn't matter.Did Jesus exist in any form before he was born? No idea, don't see any way it might matter.When Jesus was alive here on earth was he fully and only human? In my belief, yes. That is the only way I can see for the story to have any value or worth to humans.Was Jesus physically present after the resurrection? No idea and the stories have so many contradictions and inconsistencies I see no way to make even a guess on the matter. And I also can't see how it makes any differences to humans.Is Jesus alive after the ascension? Again I can see absolutely no way or reason to say Jesus was or is alive after the ascension but can say Jesus would definitely not be human at that time.

Explain further. Why would Jesus being fully God and fully man be a con job? For someone who does not believe, this seems like quite an emotional response. Why the hatred for God and Jesus? I could understand you being angry at religion...but we both know that religion is all about humans trying to reach God or trying to sell Him for their own prophet.(sic) What sort of questions would you ask Him?I believe that I understand jars beliefs. Jesus was an example of what a human could do. For some reason, jar cant grasp the idea of Jesus being fully God and fully human as being possible.So I ask all three of you. (Suspend your disbelief for a moment) If Jesus returned today and offered you salvation as a gift that you did not earn and asked you to allow Him into your heart, would you accept the offer? Ask more questions? Or reject the offer?It appears jar would ask more questions. Does anyone else agree with jars list of questions and perhaps have any questions to add to the list? Tangle appeared to have a few pithy ones... (goes to look up pithy)

This makes Jesus just another philosopher except one who was highly delusional and with a messianic complex. It would make more sense to worship Gandhi or Buddah for that matter.

I will try to get to both of your sets of questions later...I have to get ready for work and go make Mom some lunch. Thanks for challenging me to think again...sorry if I get testy with you some times.

I'm not sure Ghandi would be anyone someone could worship.And the Buddha is not really an object of worship either.But what is wrong with being a moral philosopher?Does being a Christian mean you cannot learn from the Eight Fold Path or the writings of Mencius and Confucius or from the Qur'an or the Greek, Roman, Germanic mythologies?Are the teachings of Jesus not a worthy path and guide to how to live ones life?AbE: and what part of "ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God" corresponds to either Ghandi or Buddha?Edited by jar, : see AbE:

You need to study some history. Please explain how you think warfare is more atrocious and horrific. Do you know anything about ancient warfare? Give examples? Define being a hedonist? Are people hedonists because they don't suffer all the time as in years past? Why is pleasure a bad thing? Your particular brand of religions seems to be coloring your reality. I gave spent time in Boston, Chicago, NYC and Minneapolis in the last year. I did not see any of this. As a matter of fact people are more courteous and friendly than I have seen in years past. You see what you want to see. Open your eyes to the good in people. If you and Faith want to see the end of times and the worst in people that is what you will see. A self fulfilling prophecy. Get rid of your self loathing, accept yourself and other people for what you and they are. You will see much more good in the world and much in the world worth working to improve.Or you can retreat, scared, into your own little cocoon and wait for the world to come to an end. In my view that is waste of time and a life. The world is not coming to an end, but we all need to work to improve it.Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Faith by definition is something you can not see or test for evidence. Faith is a belief without proof. That is why it is faith and not evidence.

You miss the point completely. I have no belief in a god. If there was one, he would in no way be worthy of worship. It isn't an emotional response, there is no anger, no hatred so please do not try to impute such emotions on me. If this existence was created by and controlled by a god then a piss poor, vile, evil god he would be. But as I have no belief there is it is not much of a point to consider and certainly nothing to waste emotions on.

Of course the teachings of Jesus are a worthy path and guide for one's life. So is the teaching of Buddah or Gandhi. They are a basis for philosophy not religion.You espouse philosophy based on Jesus' teaching which is not the same thing as Christianity the religion.If Jesus was not resurrected by God then He is simply another prophet or philosopher, but as I said earlier a highly delusional one, which then raises the question of why should anyone pay attention to what he said.I actually agree that we should look at Jesus as being human. I understand the incarnation in the way John deals with it in Chap 1 of his Gospel. Jesus embodied the Word (or wisdom) of God, which had existed from the beginning of time. Also Jesus understood His vocation to be a replacement for the Temple which is where the Jews believed God dwelt and where they had to go to encounter God - the place that interconnected God's space with our space. Jesus went around forgiving sin and saying things like I desire mercy not sacrifice. Jesus was essentially saying that in some way He was embodying Yahweh's return to His people.Do I think that Jesus had memories of His time with the angels. No I don't. I also believe that when He went into Jerusalem that He knew what would happen to Him because He knew what happened to people who upset the powers that be. He went into Jerusalem as an act of faith believing it was what He was called to do. God vindicated that faith and affirmed the message that Christ brought by resurrecting Him.This is what the early Jesus followers preached. They obviously believed it otherwise they would have just considered Jesus to be another failed messiah in a string of messianic movements during that period. There is no other reasonable, IMHO, explanation for the rise of the early church. The early followers were firm in their belief that Jesus was bodily resurrected.

There are two instances.There is resurrection where as I have pointed out there are conflicting and mutually exclusive descriptions.But then there is ascension and it is only the Ascension that implies any existence after death, any "heaven".If the resurrection happened I do not see how it makes any difference what form Jesus took.

God Himself gave us His Name in scripture, I AM that I AM, or The Self-Existent One, that is what Jehovah means, or now as it is rendered, Yahweh. He told Abraham that is His Name, and He also told Moses the same.Allah has no such meaning. And they like to tell us repeatedly that Allah "does not have a son" so how can anyone say he is the same as the God of the Bible?Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

The god of your genesis is Elohim. It has the same root that Allah is derived from. So it is the same word.Yahweh is the regional national god of the Israelite people. Just one of many gods that were believed in at the time. As a matter of fact in the bible that god is also referred to as Yahweh Elohim.

Elohim is the generic name for gods or God, but Jehovah is God's Name as He said. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is THE God, which even the surrounding nations recognized as reported in scripture.Allah was originally the name of a lesser god in the Arab pantheon, the moon god, which rather explains the moon symbol associated with Islam, wouldn't you think?

Nowhere in the Torah or other scriptures does it say that God has a son, so how can the gospels be describing the same God?