Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,809 Year: 3,066/9,624 Month: 911/1,588 Week: 94/223 Day: 5/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 497 of 675 (742691)
11-23-2014 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 496 by Faith
11-22-2014 11:11 PM


Re: Read it and believe it
Oh, but most important of all, Jesus Who?
Still can't get around the fact that Jesus is said to have said, but of course He doesn't exist and never said anything by your lights, but anyway, He's said to have said to Believe the gospel, meaning believe in Me, which He repeats in other parts of the gospels, oh sorry, but of course they don't exist. Jesus Who?
Repent and believe it, or Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which is really the same message, Repent for the messiah is finally here. That was His first message to the world.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 496 by Faith, posted 11-22-2014 11:11 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 500 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-23-2014 1:16 AM Faith has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 498 of 675 (742692)
11-23-2014 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 485 by Faith
11-22-2014 4:28 PM


Re: Read it and believe it
It is actually Mark 1:15.
The time has come, he said. The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 485 by Faith, posted 11-22-2014 4:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 499 by Faith, posted 11-23-2014 1:13 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 499 of 675 (742694)
11-23-2014 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 498 by Theodoric
11-23-2014 12:40 AM


Re: Read it and believe it
I had Mark 1:14 and 15. Something wrong with that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 498 by Theodoric, posted 11-23-2014 12:40 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 503 by Theodoric, posted 11-23-2014 6:21 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 504 by Theodoric, posted 11-23-2014 6:38 AM Faith has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 500 of 675 (742695)
11-23-2014 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 497 by Faith
11-23-2014 12:32 AM


Re: Read it and believe it
From Message 496:
How very odd. Obviously by your reasoning we aren't supposed to help people in need either, because those words are in the Bible.
That is totally false and illogical.
I never said nor implied that we aren't supposed to help people in need because those words are not in the Bible.
My point in Message 495 was that Jesus Christ instucted us to act, not just believe, and that your opinion that He meant belief over action is both misguided and false.
From your Message 497:
Oh, but most important of all, Jesus Who?
Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Still can't get around the fact that Jesus is said to have said, but of course He doesn't exist and never said anything by your lights, but anyway, He's said to have said to Believe the gospel, meaning believe in Me, which He repeats in other parts of the gospels, oh sorry, but of course they don't exist. Jesus Who?
That mess of words does not make sense in English.
Repent and believe it, or Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which is really the same message, Repent for the messiah is finally here. That was His first message to the world.
The verses you quoted happened when Jesus was an adult, no? Did he not have any messages at all before then? These weren't actually his "first" messages, no?
What was his actual "first" message?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 497 by Faith, posted 11-23-2014 12:32 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 501 by Faith, posted 11-23-2014 2:09 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 501 of 675 (742698)
11-23-2014 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 500 by New Cat's Eye
11-23-2014 1:16 AM


Re: Read it and believe it
Even odder.
I never said nor implied that we aren't supposed to help people in need because those words are not in the Bible.
No, but you made much of the fact that Jesus said them and that this is the whole point of His ministry, to teach us such things, while at the same time telling me I put too much trust in the Bible; and my answer is that if you are going to keep objecting to my pointing to the Bible as the source of truth then you are eliminating your own source of what Jesus said, so that we don't have to obey any of His commands, to help people in need or whatever. Eliminate the Bible and you eliminate Jesus and everything He said.
My point in Message 495 was that Jesus Christ instucted us to act, not just believe, and that your opinion that He meant belief over action is both misguided and false.
And my answer, which you seem to find so hard to grasp, is that if you keep dismissing the Bible as the inerrant source of truth it is, then you also dismiss Jesus and everything He said.
I haven't discounted that He has given us commands to act, but you are discounting that His main and first command was to believe, believe the gospel, believe in Him.
You seem to think you can pick and choose whatever you like from the Bible. But you can't call Him "the Son of God" without the Bible to tell you that's who He is. And if we can all just pick and choose, then somebody else is going to eliminate that term too. Thomas Jefferson eliminated all the supernatural stuff, so he would have eliminated the supernatural implications of "Son of God" as well. But then, maybe you do too.
The verses you quoted happened when Jesus was an adult, no? Did he not have any messages at all before then? These weren't actually his "first" messages, no?
What was his actual "first" message?
I'm talking about the first message of his ministry, when He began preaching. He began it with an announcement that the Kingdom of God had come, which of course means He the Messiah had come.
His very very very first message was probably something like "mama" or "dada."
He said quite a bit about believing. It's all in the Bible along with the commandments such as "Love your neighbor as yourself" but by your lights I don't have to take that commandment seriously at all anyway because believing the Bible is stupid.
Here's a list of all the verses in the New Testament that have the word "believe" in them. Most are Jesus' own words.
Do you particularly dislike the Gospel of John perhaps? Seems to have the most references to belief.
John 5:47 is particularly interesting:
But if ye believe not his [Moses'] writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Isn't He saying basically "Believe the Bible" by saying this? "Believe the Torah" for starters. And if you don't then you can't believe anything He says either.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-23-2014 1:16 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 505 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-24-2014 11:45 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 502 of 675 (742699)
11-23-2014 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 489 by Faith
11-22-2014 7:06 PM


Re: Read it and believe it
Jesus told the people of his own times to believe that the Kigdom of God was at hand. You truncate the quotation to claim that is is a general command to believe.
You tell us to "read the Bible and believe" when the things you say are not in the Bible.
When I mention some things that the Bible does say, you tell me that they are all wrong.
Want to explain why we should put your word above the Bible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by Faith, posted 11-22-2014 7:06 PM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 503 of 675 (742700)
11-23-2014 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 499 by Faith
11-23-2014 1:13 AM


Re: Read it and believe it
Missed that post sorry.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 499 by Faith, posted 11-23-2014 1:13 AM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 504 of 675 (742701)
11-23-2014 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 499 by Faith
11-23-2014 1:13 AM


Re: Read it and believe it
Missed that post sorry.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 499 by Faith, posted 11-23-2014 1:13 AM Faith has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 505 of 675 (742761)
11-24-2014 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 501 by Faith
11-23-2014 2:09 AM


Re: Read it and believe it
No, but you made much of the fact that Jesus said them and that this is the whole point of His ministry, to teach us such things, while at the same time telling me I put too much trust in the Bible; and my answer is that if you are going to keep objecting to my pointing to the Bible as the source of truth then you are eliminating your own source of what Jesus said, so that we don't have to obey any of His commands, to help people in need or whatever. Eliminate the Bible and you eliminate Jesus and everything He said.
Ha! You're trying to turn this into a black and white, all or nothing dichotomy. That I'm saying to read nothing in the Bible. I've said nothing of the sort.
I've said that you shouldn't put "believing in the words on the page" above following the message of Jesus.
And my answer, which you seem to find so hard to grasp, is that if you keep dismissing the Bible as the inerrant source of truth it is, then you also dismiss Jesus and everything He said.
That's not true at all. We can assess claims of truth against reality without having to assume that the source is entirely true.
Two plus two equals five and you should treat people how you want to be treated. The fact that the first clause is false does not render the second clause as untrue.
We can see that Jesus teaches us truth without having to believe that the Earth was created 6000 years ago, for example.
I haven't discounted that He has given us commands to act, but you are discounting that His main and first command was to believe, believe the gospel, believe in Him.
That's wrong. Jesus explicitly told us what the greatest commandment was. He also explicitly explained to us what its means to believe in Him - that is, what we must do in order for that to be true.
You are just assuming that the opening clause in his testimony was the most important part. But He told us, Himself, otherwise.
And we know that opening clause cannot be talking about believe the words in the Bible.
You seem to think you can pick and choose whatever you like from the Bible.
No, not whatever I "like"; we can assess the Bible against reality and accept what is true and reject what is false.
It is not an all or nothing deal.
But you can't call Him "the Son of God" without the Bible to tell you that's who He is.
Patently false: people were calling Him the Son of God before the Bible was even compiled.
Too, people called Him the Son of God when they couldn't even read the Bible.
Its about receiving the message, and you don't need to read the Bible for that. It can be spread verbally. And it was sourced before the Bible was even written.
He said quite a bit about believing. It's all in the Bible along with the commandments such as "Love your neighbor as yourself" but by your lights I don't have to take that commandment seriously at all anyway because believing the Bible is stupid.
That's not my claim at all. Here it is again:
Putting "believing the words in the Bible" above "following the message of Jesus" is stupid.
Jesus, Himself, told us how to follow his message by feeding the hungry, etc., and doing for the least of His people. That is His greatest commandment, according to Him.
Do you particularly dislike the Gospel of John perhaps? Seems to have the most references to belief.
John 5:47 is particularly interesting:
But if ye believe not his [Moses'] writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Isn't He saying basically "Believe the Bible" by saying this? "Believe the Torah" for starters. And if you don't then you can't believe anything He says either.
Nope. He is saying that you have to believe in his message of Jesus that he is bringing, and if you can't bring yourself to believe Moses's prophecies about the coming of this message, then you're probably not going to believe the message, itself.
You gotta read that whole section, not quote-mine that last part. Check out John 5:39-40
quote:
39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
You have to "come to him" and that means to follow the message. You can't just find eternal life in the Scriptures. You gotta go out and do good in the world.
Here's the rest of that part:
quote:
41 I do not receive glory from people. 42 But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. 43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44 How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?
He's saying that Moses wrote about him and therefore if you believe Moses then you should believe his message to - the message that came from The Father through His Son Jesus Christ.
He is not saying that you have to believe in the Bible. He is saying that if you reject Moses's writings about him, then you are not going to be able to accept that he is delivering a message from The Father.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 501 by Faith, posted 11-23-2014 2:09 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 506 by Faith, posted 11-24-2014 4:29 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 506 of 675 (742779)
11-24-2014 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 505 by New Cat's Eye
11-24-2014 11:45 AM


Re: Read it and believe it
Ha! You're trying to turn this into a black and white, all or nothing dichotomy. That I'm saying to read nothing in the Bible. I've said nothing of the sort.
No you haven't, but my point is that if it isn't all then it's nothing because there is no other source of the information in the Bible. You are reduced to subjectively choosing what you think is true or not true whether you know it or not, and that leaves it open for others to subjectively choose parts you wouldn't choose.
I've said that you shouldn't put "believing in the words on the page" above following the message of Jesus.
But that's impossible with the Bible. There is no "message of Jesus" without believing in the words on the page. You are arbitrarily subjectively preferring some of the words ascribed to Jesus out of all the other words on the page and you have no valid standard for such a choice. His words were transmitted by others, He didn't write them Himself, and why accept those particular words as true while ignoring all the others written by the same authors? You are really making no sense at all.
And my answer, which you seem to find so hard to grasp, is that if you keep dismissing the Bible as the inerrant source of truth it is, then you also dismiss Jesus and everything He said.
That's not true at all. We can assess claims of truth against reality without having to assume that the source is entirely true.
You are only fooling yourself if you think that. Most of the information in the Bible is unique to the Bible, what "reality" are you going to compare it with? It can only be judged by other parts of the Bible, not by external "reality."
Two plus two equals five and you should treat people how you want to be treated. The fact that the first clause is false does not render the second clause as untrue.
But two plus two equals five is not in the Bible. You've already destroyed your own claim.
We can see that Jesus teaches us truth without having to believe that the Earth was created 6000 years ago, for example.
But then you've pretty much reduced him to just a philosopher. It's true you can't compute the age of the creation from anything He said, but He does refer to the Creation, as well as to the Flood of Noah. And the reason He had to die for our sins is that death is the consequence of sin, which you are obliged to disbelieve if you think evolution preceded Adam and Eve. The Bible really does hold together as a coherent whole if you truly understand it, which you can only do by believing it.
I haven't discounted that He has given us commands to act, but you are discounting that His main and first command was to believe, believe the gospel, believe in Him.
That's wrong. Jesus explicitly told us what the greatest commandment was. He also explicitly explained to us what its means to believe in Him - that is, what we must do in order for that to be true.
You are just assuming that the opening clause in his testimony was the most important part. But He told us, Himself, otherwise.
Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. That's the first great commandment, which you ignore in favor of the second.
But anyway, repent and believe in the gospel IS the first thing he said; if you want to subordinate it to your favorite second greatest commandment, it is still the first thing He said and you are ignoring it completely. Repent and believe the gospel of the Kingdom, that the King has come. HE HIMSELF is the centerpiece of Christianity:
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
He Himself is the bread that feeds US. This is the gospel, not our duties to help others. Where's the "good news" in that duty? The good news is that the Kingdom has come and our sins are forgiven when we put all our trust in the King who died for us.
And we know that opening clause cannot be talking about believe the words in the Bible.
No, that is an inference from the fact that we have no other source of knowledge of Him or anything He said except the Bible. Do away with the Bible and you do away with Jesus Christ and everything He said.
You seem to think you can pick and choose whatever you like from the Bible.
No, not whatever I "like"; we can assess the Bible against reality and accept what is true and reject what is false.
See above. You fool yourself if you think this. You can only subjectively assess it because there is no reality outside it that can be used to assess it.
It is not an all or nothing deal.
Sure is. See above.
But you can't call Him "the Son of God" without the Bible to tell you that's who He is.
Patently false: people were calling Him the Son of God before the Bible was even compiled.
Uhhhhhh. Groan. But you, we, couldn't know this without the Bible. We need some written testimony and the Bible is it. Come ON!
Too, people called Him the Son of God when they couldn't even read the Bible.
Who on earth are you talking about and how would you know about it without the Bible?
Its about receiving the message, and you don't need to read the Bible for that. It can be spread verbally. And it was sourced before the Bible was even written.
Oh that's priceless logic there. Wow. People manage to dismiss this fantastic written testimony we have and yet you think we could make do with mere verbal testimony that was never written down but somehow got transmitted intact for two millennia from mouth to mouth? You think that would be a superior method of communication of the truths about Jesus? Are you thinking at all?
He said quite a bit about believing. It's all in the Bible along with the commandments such as "Love your neighbor as yourself" but by your lights I don't have to take that commandment seriously at all anyway because believing the Bible is stupid.
That's not my claim at all. Here it is again:
Putting "believing the words in the Bible" above "following the message of Jesus" is stupid.
And again, there would be no message of Jesus to follow without believing the words of the Bible. Sheesh.
Jesus, Himself, told us how to follow his message by feeding the hungry, etc., and doing for the least of His people. That is His greatest commandment, according to Him.
Well, again, just as a point of fact, it isn't the greatest, it's the second of the two great commandments, the first being love God with all your heart, which you keep ignoring. And besides the commandment is love your neighbor as yourself, not the way you've put it. And just as another tiresome point of fact do you know that He said absolutely nothing about feeding the hungry? I looked up "hungry" and found Mark 11:12 where He Himself is said to be hungry, and Luke 1:53 where it says HE has filled the hungry with good things and sent the rich away. For "hunger" we have references to Himself as the bread of life, and hungering for righteousness and that sort of thing.
However, of course we are to take care of the poor and hungry, from that second commandment you keep wrongly putting first, "love your neighbor as yourself."
Do you particularly dislike the Gospel of John perhaps? Seems to have the most references to belief.
John 5:47 is particularly interesting:
But if ye believe not his [Moses'] writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Isn't He saying basically "Believe the Bible" by saying this? "Believe the Torah" for starters. And if you don't then you can't believe anything He says either.
Nope. He is saying that you have to believe in his message of Jesus that he is bringing, and if you can't bring yourself to believe Moses's prophecies about the coming of this message, then you're probably not going to believe the message, itself.
It must be a strain to keep ignoring the obvious. Jesus said to believe Moses' "writings" which covers the entire Torah.
Really, CS, you are reducing Jesus to a nonentity. We didn't need the Son of God to bring us the two great commandments because they are already in the Old Testament.
You gotta read that whole section, not quote-mine that last part. Check out John 5:39-40
quote:
39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
You have to "come to him" and that means to follow the message. You can't just find eternal life in the Scriptures. You gotta go out and do good in the world.
I think you are missing the whole point here. It is Himself we are to come to, He Himself, the bread of life, the fountain of living water, the way, the truth and the life who is the only way to the Father. Nothing about His "message," it's all about Himself. He is our salvation. "He who believes on Me has eternal life." Amazing how you keep ignoring this central message.
Here's the rest of that part:
quote:
41 I do not receive glory from people. 42 But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. 43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44 How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?
He's saying that Moses wrote about him and therefore if you believe Moses then you should believe his message to - the message that came from The Father through His Son Jesus Christ.
Again, CS, it is so plain that He is talking about Himself and not the commandments. He's talking about "receiving" HIM. And also His words, of course, such as when He said "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by Me; and I am the bread that came down from heaven; and He who believes on Me has everlasting life.
He is not saying that you have to believe in the Bible. He is saying that if you reject Moses's writings about him, then you are not going to be able to accept that he is delivering a message from the Father.
But you are confining His "message" to things Moses himself had already said, making Jesus' coming superfluous, and where is the "good news" in taking care of our neighbor? Believing that through Him we have life everlasting, though, that He died for our sins, that He is our bread or sustenance, now THAT is "good news."
ABE: Oh and I forgot to repeat that when Jesus says to believe in Moses' writings He is essentially saying to believe the Bible.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 505 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-24-2014 11:45 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 655 by Phat, posted 12-01-2016 6:52 PM Faith has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 507 of 675 (742789)
11-24-2014 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 481 by jar
11-22-2014 3:10 PM


jar writes:
Nor have I tried to show Jesus never existed. What I have said is it doesn't really matter; Christianity today and in the past was based on belief not facts.
That is only partially true. Christianity was based on the belief that the resurrection was a fact.
I know you've read this before but here is what Paul wrote in his first letter to the Corinthians Chap 15.
quote:
14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
This is not proof that Paul was correct but it is clear this is what he believed. Paul and the others preached a resurrected Jesus. That is the foundation of the Christian faith.
jar writes:
I do not assert that God is alive or Jesus is alive.
..as is the case with atheism. You hold to a Christian philosophy which is great but with no more reason to hold that philosophy than to any other philosopher that you want to name. And for that matter, as I said earlier, it makes less sense to believe what Jesus said when you consider that Jesus without the resurrection is just another failed messiah with visions of grandeur.
jar writes:
How many authors have written about King Arthur or Robin Hood or Sherlock Holmes or Dick Tracy? And their sources come from a variety of sources.
Frankly this just demonstrates again how weak your position is. These authors were all clear they were writing fiction. Paul and the other NT authors were very clear that what they wrote they intended to be believed.
Luke introduces his Gospel with this.
quote:
1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
None of this proof of the resurrection. In the end we choose to believe or not to believe, but the resurrection is the central element of the Christian faith and to reject it is to reject that faith.
I am not saying that rejecting that faith damns anyone to hell. I think that is also consistent with what Jesus, Paul and the others taught, but that is another topic.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 481 by jar, posted 11-22-2014 3:10 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 510 by jar, posted 11-24-2014 5:54 PM GDR has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 508 of 675 (742792)
11-24-2014 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 462 by Faith
11-21-2014 2:39 PM


Re: Just read and believe the Bible for a change
There's not much if anything to believe in other religions, it's mostly precepts and instructions to obey.
Read the Quran. Just read it and believe it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by Faith, posted 11-21-2014 2:39 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 509 of 675 (742794)
11-24-2014 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 477 by Faith
11-22-2014 11:22 AM


Re: Just read and believe the Bible for a change
You really ought to listen to some orthodox traditional Protestant preachers some time.
Then you should listen to some orthodox traditional imams, especially for your misreadings of the Quran. Remember, just read it and believe it. When you read the Quran you have to fully believe it is true, and then you will see that it is true.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by Faith, posted 11-22-2014 11:22 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 510 of 675 (742795)
11-24-2014 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 507 by GDR
11-24-2014 5:19 PM


Why does it matter?
GDR writes:
None of this proof of the resurrection. In the end we choose to believe or not to believe, but the resurrection is the central element of the Christian faith and to reject it is to reject that faith.
You keep harping on terms like reject when I do not think I have ever said anything related to rejection.
Let me try yet again.
Lots of religions have existed based on what we now know are false beliefs.
Yes, Christianity has had a belief in a resurrection but so far I don't see anything you have presented that would imply there had to be a physical resurrection.
So my point is that belief seems to be sufficient regardless of facts.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 507 by GDR, posted 11-24-2014 5:19 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 511 by GDR, posted 11-24-2014 6:56 PM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 511 of 675 (742798)
11-24-2014 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 510 by jar
11-24-2014 5:54 PM


Re: Why does it matter?
jar writes:
Lots of religions have existed based on what we now know are false beliefs.
Of course and I like all Christians I'm sure will find that some of the things we believe turn out to be wrong. (In the next life I'm going to all the lectures. )
jar writes:
Yes, Christianity has had a belief in a resurrection but so far I don't see anything you have presented that would imply there had to be a physical resurrection.
If it is just a sense of some sort of presence that isn't in some sense physical then that it is all empty rhetoric. I have a friend who lost a son and sensed his presence at the foot of her bed. There are no shortage of people with experiences such as that.
If those 1st century Jews didn't touch Him, speak to Him etc after the resurrection then the whole Christian faith is a sham and not worth following. One is better to look elsewhere to find a moral foundation for their lives. If I didn't believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus then I wouldn't call myself Christian. (I know many do and that's fine - people can call themselves whatever they like). I suppose I'd simply call myself a theist with no fixed address.
Jesus, in spite of what Crossan says saw Himself as the Messiah. (Being Messiah in itself does not in any way make Him divine. There are other ways to come to that.) Simply riding into Jerusalem on a donkey demonstrates clearly that He saw Himself fulfilling the prophecy of Jeremiah and proclaiming Himself as the Messiah.
jar writes:
So my point is that belief seems to be sufficient regardless of facts.
Belief in what?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 510 by jar, posted 11-24-2014 5:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 512 by jar, posted 11-24-2014 7:04 PM GDR has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024