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Author | Topic: Multiculturalism | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
dronester writes:
I don't think I've said that circumcision, no matter how extreme, is not mutilation. I've said it's not necessarily abuse. ringo writes:
I and others have already specified many times: we think removing the clitoris is not merely circumcision, but rather mutilation. Removal of the entire penis would also be mutilation, not circumcision. Of course the question here is whether circumcision constitutes "harm". So where do you draw the line? And you're still not answering the question: Where do you draw the line? What level of "alteration" less than FGM would be acceptable to you?
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
You're forcing them to choose between the law and their religion/culture. You're forcing them to choose between prison and social rejection. As I often tell Phat, it isn't much of a choice.
As you well know, I do not want them to do either. And I am not forcing them to do either. If they choose to do either they will break the law and risk jail.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
RingO writes: You can be as arrogant as you like and insist that you know they have been brainwashed and that they don't really, really, really want it. Yes, a million social services providers are completely arrogant because they insist that they know and decide what is harmful to a child, and will remove that child from the parents if a threshold is reached. And with that, I can concur of your judgement unto me, . . . if requesting/demanding safe health and safe environments for children makes me arrogant, . . . then arrogant be I.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
dronester writes:
Maybe English isn't your first language. What do you think is the difference between those two questions? ringo writes:
No, for the third time, my simple question is:
Your question was, "Do you want it to stop IMMEDIATELY?"quote: I have said more than once that there is nothing, whether a cultural practice or anything else - NOTHING - that is impossible that I want to do. Stopping things immediately is impossible. Therefore, the set of things that I want to stop immediately is empty.
dronester writes:
I said "on the whole" - i.e. the whole of society. If a handful of women lose their clitoris, you won't even notice unless you're peeking under their skirts. But we have stories in the newspapers every day about people wholes lives and whose families' lives were ruined by gambling. On what basis do you believe the removal of the clitoris is less harmful than gambling? So gambling is a problem in our society. I would like to see it diminished, though I'm not optimistic that it will be. And I'm certainly not idiotic enough to think it can be stopped, either immediately or eventually.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
dronester writes:
Read what I wrote again. The word "they" refers to the ones who have (supposedly) been brainwashed - i.e. the women who have been circumcised and who want their daughters to be circumcised. You're arrogant for thinking that you know their minds better than they do.
ringo writes:
. . . if requesting/demanding safe health and safe environments for children makes me arrogant, . . . then arrogant be I. You can be as arrogant as you like and insist that you know they have been brainwashed and that they don't really, really, really want it.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
RingO writes: I don't think I've said that circumcision, no matter how extreme, is not mutilation. I've said it's not necessarily abuse. Remember when I warned you against be weaselly? Don't make me go all schoolmarm on ya.
RingO writes: What level of "alteration" less than FGM would be acceptable to you? Sheesh, I thought I have been abundantly clear.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
dronester writes:
By all means go all schoolmarm on me. Point out where I said that circumcision is not mutilation. It may be a typo or it may be your characteristic illiteracy.
Don't make me go all schoolmarm on ya. dronester writes:
No, as far as I can tell you've been completely silent. Give us an example of what would be acceptable to you.
ringo writes:
Sheesh, I thought I have been abundantly clear. What level of "alteration" less than FGM would be acceptable to you?
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
RingO writes: You're arrogant for thinking that you know their minds better than they do. Yes, as I mentioned in an earlier post, social workers do this type of thing, assessing the welfare of children through the actions and thoughts of parents, all the time. Does this really surprise you? I can assure you It's not through magical processes Ringo.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
RingO writes: It may be a typo or it may be your characteristic illiteracy. Now now, play nice.
RingO writes: No, as far as I can tell you've been completely silent. Give us an example of what would be acceptable to you. Does the following jog your memory:
quote:
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
dronester writes:
They do that on an individual basis, not across whole cultures. You know, like they might decide that one black man is lazy but they don't project that conclusion on all black men. Yes, as I mentioned in an earlier post, social workers do this type of thing, assessing the welfare of children through the actions and thoughts of parents, all the time. It may be that some women who favour FGM have been brainwashed and/or coerced but you have no basis for drawing a blanket conclusion about all of them.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
You're forcing them to choose between the law and their religion/culture. No. I'm asking for them to not cut their children and telling them that if they do, they will be subject to UK law. And it's not a religious practice, it's a cultural practice.
You're forcing them to choose between prison and social rejection. No. I'm telling them that FGM is illegal in their new country, (which they knew before they arrived) so if they wish to mutilate their child, they must stay in their home country or risk being prosecuted for doing it here. Occasionally, that might result in a prison sentence. By choosing not to mutilate children they will gain wider acceptance in the UK and not be restricted to their old culture - if they come here they need to be prepared to compromise some primitive practices and attempt to assimilate and abide by our cultural practices - ie the law.
As I often tell Phat, it isn't much of a choice. But it is a choice, a very good one.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
dronester writes:
So are you withdrawing the accusation that I said circumcision is not mutilation?
Now now, play nice. dronester writes:
My memory is long and occasionally accurate. What I asked you was about a line. Are you saying that there is nothing between male circumcision and female circumcision? Because I've been saying that the only difference is in degree and I've gotten some flak over that. If you agree with me, thanks for the support. If not, please answer the question: Where do you draw the line?
Does the following jog your memory:
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
That's what Phat always says. But it is a choice, a very good one. But it's you who thinks it's a good choice, not the people who actually have to make the choice. Tell me the two things you'd least like to do and I'll give you a choice between them. Some choice.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
RingO writes: So are you withdrawing the accusation that I said circumcision is not mutilation? I, I have stated female "circumcision" is mutilation. I, I previously wrote "Female circumcision (especially removal of the clitoris) degrades the pleasurable function." Therefore it is a definition of mutilation. The mutilation of children is wrong and should be illegal. Parents who mutilate their children should go to jail. If you wholly agree with my statement above, there is nothing to argue, and naturally, I withdraw my argument against you.
RingO writes: Where do you draw the line? I, I have stated female "circumcision" is mutilation. I, I previously wrote "Female circumcision (especially removal of the clitoris) degrades the pleasurable function." Therefore it is a definition of mutilation. The mutilation of children is wrong and should be illegal. Parents who mutilate their children should go to jail. It seems you keep asking me to repeat myself in this thread, so at this point, if you do not agree with my argument above, I'm gonna bow out and let others do the lifting. Good luck Tangle, et al.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Ringo writes:
But it's you who thinks it's a good choice, not the people who actually have to make the choice. Tell me the two things you'd least like to do and I'll give you a choice between them. Some choice. It's the UK society that are quite rightly setting out the terms by which foreigners may live in its society. That's the deal, take it or stay at home where your cultural practices are not regarded as inhumane and illegal.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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