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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 542 of 675 (743155)
11-27-2014 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 541 by AZPaul3
11-27-2014 11:23 AM


Re: It's in the message.
Hi AZPaul3
I think that you actually presented jar's POV better than mine. I agree that we can't KNOW the truth of the resurrection in empirical terms.I agree that it is a matter of faith and that ultimately what we do in this life is what matters. (I would add the caveat that it isn't strictly what we do but what it is that motivates us to do what we do. ) I applaud jar for all those things that he has done.
My point is simply this. Jar agrees that the beliefs he holds could be held by any of the Abrahamic religions, (as well as others) and if he had been born in Saudi that he would hold exactly the same views he does now and would in all probability be a Muslim.
His beliefs then are essentially that of a generic theist and not specifically Christianity. I'm simply showing that there is a difference between calling oneself a Christian on the basis of culture as opposed to calling oneself a Christian on the conviction that God did something extraordinary in Jesus Christ which vindicates and validates Jesus' life and message.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by AZPaul3, posted 11-27-2014 11:23 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 543 by jar, posted 11-27-2014 1:50 PM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 543 of 675 (743156)
11-27-2014 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 542 by GDR
11-27-2014 1:35 PM


Re: It's in the message.
GDR writes:
I would add the caveat that it isn't strictly what we do but what it is that motivates us to do what we do.
And that is a key place where I disagree with you. I believe that what motivates folk is totally irrelevant.
Nor do I say that if I were born in Saudi Arabia I would hold the same beliefs. I say that if I were born and raised in a different culture I would likely be whatever religious affiliation I was raised in.
I said that I cannot think of any significant beliefs I hold that could not be held by those of other or even no beliefs.
I do not think that may personal beliefs about Jesus or God are significant or important since as long as we are alive we can never determine if those beliefs are correct. If I was raised as a Jew or a Muslim or Buddhist or Taoist or Hindu then naturally I would likely not hold my current beliefs related to God or Jesus. But as long as we are alive is that important?
Are there any beliefs about how we should live this life that could not be held by someone from any other belief or even no belief?
Now as you know, after the offering we point out the "of your own have we offered you". It is an acknowledgement that what we have is actually Gods and we are simply stewards.
Is that not something that could be held by anyone?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by GDR, posted 11-27-2014 1:35 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 544 by GDR, posted 11-27-2014 2:03 PM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 544 of 675 (743157)
11-27-2014 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 543 by jar
11-27-2014 1:50 PM


Re: It's in the message.
jar writes:
Are there any beliefs about how we should live this life that could not be held by someone from any other belief or even no belief?
Now as you know, after the offering we point out the "of your own have we offered you". It is an acknowledgement that what we have is actually Gods and we are simply stewards.
I Muslim or a Jew could pray that. However I agree that that is one of the more meaningful parts of the liturgy along with asking forgiveness for "what I have done and for what I have left undone".
I suggest that motivation does matter from a Christian perspective and that is clear in the Gospels. If I am going to serve in the food bank I think it matters ultimately whether I am doing it so that I will look good to others or am I doing it out of simple love and compassion for others. It may not matter to the homeless person that is being fed, but I suggest that it matters to God because of us His love for us and for His desire that our hearts love unselfishly.
When you look at Matthew 25 and the sheep and the goats parable the sheep didn't know they were feeding the hungry etc for/to Jesus. They just did it because that is what their heart told them they should do.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by jar, posted 11-27-2014 1:50 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 545 by jar, posted 11-27-2014 4:11 PM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 545 of 675 (743167)
11-27-2014 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 544 by GDR
11-27-2014 2:03 PM


Re: It's in the message.
GDR writes:
If I am going to serve in the food bank I think it matters ultimately whether I am doing it so that I will look good to others or am I doing it out of simple love and compassion for others.
How is that a uniquely Christian position?
Can a Jew not feed the hungry out of simple love and compassion for others?
Can a Muslim not feed the hungry out of simple love and compassion for others?
Can a Hindu not feed the hungry out of simple love and compassion for others?
Can a Buddhist not feed the hungry out of simple love and compassion for others?
Can an atheist not feed the hungry out of simple love and compassion for others?
Can a (fill in the blank) not feed the hungry out of simple love and compassion for others?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 544 by GDR, posted 11-27-2014 2:03 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 546 by GDR, posted 11-27-2014 6:04 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 546 of 675 (743178)
11-27-2014 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 545 by jar
11-27-2014 4:11 PM


Re: It's in the message.
jar writes:
How is that a uniquely Christian position?
It isn't and I never claimed it was. You just said that you disagreed with the concept so I gave my answer to what you disagreed with.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by jar, posted 11-27-2014 4:11 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 547 of 675 (743188)
11-27-2014 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 534 by GDR
11-26-2014 8:02 PM


Re: Why does it matter?
GDR writes:
Christianity is about believing those things to be historically true. If they aren't true then Christianity is a sham and you seem to think that it is just fine to base one's life on something that is totally fictitious.
If I didn't believe that Jesus lived and was resurrected by God then I certainly wouldn't call myself a Christian.
I think that jars point and position is that it does not matter what one believes so much as it matters what one does for others versus what they had the capability to do.
This is why I see jar as the unofficial "Apostle to the Atheists". The jist of this belief is, according to jar,
quote:
I just don't see where it is necessary to accept Christ in the first place. I imagine that there will be far more Atheists, Agnostics, Jews. Muslims, Buddhists, Satanist, Animists, Wiccans, Hindus and Taoists in heaven than Christians.
In order to properly be an apostle to the atheists, one would have to be a cultural "doer" of good works,(simple love and compassion for others) non-religious, and holding logic, reason, and reality on a higher plane than belief.
Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 534 by GDR, posted 11-26-2014 8:02 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 550 by jar, posted 11-28-2014 10:11 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 548 of 675 (743206)
11-28-2014 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 539 by Phat
11-27-2014 7:12 AM


Re: Why does it matter?
So you attack Carrier and I and you have nothing to back it up.
Typical.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 539 by Phat, posted 11-27-2014 7:12 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 549 by Phat, posted 11-28-2014 10:01 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 549 of 675 (743207)
11-28-2014 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 548 by Theodoric
11-28-2014 9:52 AM


Re: Why does it matter?
why are you so cynical? To be fair, you dont really know me and I dont really know you. I have nothing against you personally. I only attack positions which are, in my opinion, antichristian. Not that Jesus needs defending, mind you. There will be times when I come across as insufferably arrogant...im human and my character is still being developed.
It is my opinion, based on what I read and what I perceive, that some of these intellectual atheists are also arrogant...smug and self assured that their "facts" demolish any pretense of Christianity actually being true.
It is my opinion that they are simply wrong. It is not a matter of evidence, since I have no objective evidence apart from my own character. It is a matter of faith and reasoned argumentation, which I am attempting to provide here.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by Theodoric, posted 11-28-2014 9:52 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 551 by Theodoric, posted 11-28-2014 12:10 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 552 by jar, posted 11-28-2014 12:54 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 550 of 675 (743208)
11-28-2014 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 547 by Phat
11-27-2014 10:25 PM


Think Phat
Phat writes:
This is why I see jar as the unofficial "Apostle to the Atheists".
...
In order to properly be an apostle to the atheists, one would have to be a cultural "doer" of good works,(simple love and compassion for others) non-religious, and holding logic, reason, and reality on a higher plane than belief.
Stop and think Phat.
First what possible need would there ever be to be an apostle to atheists?
When Jesus threw the great fish fry by the shore did He not jess feed everyone that was there and provide left overs for those who didn't get to the pachanga without asking if they believed in Him or even if they listened to what He said?
When reality refutes a belief isn't it wise to throw the belief away no matter how strongly the belief is held?
When I post here relating to religious subjects who am I responding to?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 547 by Phat, posted 11-27-2014 10:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 551 of 675 (743218)
11-28-2014 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 549 by Phat
11-28-2014 10:01 AM


Re: Why does it matter?
Of course it is about evidence. I posted that the Josephus and Tacitus references about your Jesus are probably not legitimate. You responded with a snide comment about a historian that you assumed was my source. It was actually an ad hominem against him and I. Against him that he has some sort of agenda and against me because you accused me of somehow blindly following him. Carrier is one of a few reputable historians I have read. He and the rest have reasoned, well argued arguments fo their positions. You have faith.
If you are going to make attacks be prepared to back them up or don't make them.
Now, do you have any argument to show that the Josephus and Tacitus lines are original to them? Are you familiar with any of the scholarship on the issue? Or do you blindly believe their legitimacy because they back your religious beliefs?
Why do you feel a personal attack because someone presents solid evidence and reason that counters your belief system? When you blindly attack you look silly and unconfident in your beliefs. You criticize Jar but he is at least intellectually honest about his beliefs and how they relate to verifiable reality.
Don't attack me because you beliefs do not stand up to scrutiny.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 549 by Phat, posted 11-28-2014 10:01 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 552 of 675 (743221)
11-28-2014 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 549 by Phat
11-28-2014 10:01 AM


again, research
Phat writes:
I only attack positions which are, in my opinion, antichristian.
Have you looked up the text of either Josephus or Tacitus?
Let's first look at Josephus:
quote:
Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa], desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrim without his consent.[24] Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.
Now remember that this was written about sixty years after Jesus death and that there is only a passing mention that might refer to Jesus and another reference that most certainly is not Jesus Christ.
The second passage from Josephus is:
quote:
3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross,[9] those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day;[10] as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
Again it is simply a secondhand report of what we know, that there was a group that called themselves Christians and claimed that Jesus performed miracles and that there were prophecies regarding Him.
And from Tacitus, written over 75 years after Jesus death.
quote:
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.
Both sources simply repeat the same material that was current in the Christian culture but are just reports of what people believed not evidence of any facts beyond belief.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 549 by Phat, posted 11-28-2014 10:01 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 553 by Theodoric, posted 11-28-2014 1:25 PM jar has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 553 of 675 (743223)
11-28-2014 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 552 by jar
11-28-2014 12:54 PM


Re: again, research
So even if they are not interpolations neither are evidence for the existence of a historical Jesus Christ. All it is is hearsay.
Edited by Theodoric, : forgot second "they"
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by jar, posted 11-28-2014 12:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 554 by jar, posted 11-28-2014 2:32 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 554 of 675 (743228)
11-28-2014 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 553 by Theodoric
11-28-2014 1:25 PM


Re: again, research
Correct. At best they are reports of reports.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 553 by Theodoric, posted 11-28-2014 1:25 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 555 of 675 (745131)
12-19-2014 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
07-09-2007 1:06 PM


Random Philosophy With Jar
Bringing back some of these old arguments and rethinking them.....
jar writes:
If God knows the end results then all of the responsibility for the end result lies with God.
True. God is the Creator of all seen and unseen. Thus logically is responsible for the entire universe. One could argue that Lucifer chose to become Satan. Critics would argue that God allowed the choice.
jar writes:
If God knows the end result, the decision is not independently made.
So what? If God has ultimate foreknowledge and the critter chooses wrongly and is damned as a result, God is only responsible in that God allowed the possibility of "damning".The critter chose the path to damnation. God only foresaw it occurring. Why would such a God be evil? This depends if God only had one path as an option in that persons life.
jar writes:
Do you believe that GOD creates all that is, seen and unseen?
Yes. The only area I reserve doubts about is our thoughts. If we become the decisions that we make, we are only responsible if we actually make those decisions. Perhaps God could foreknow what I would ultimately decide. You may say that such a God created only to punish(in the event I ended up in Hell) and are of course free to believe that. You are also free to believe that such a God is evil and should be opposed. God, if God exists would not get her panties in a bunch simply because you thought her evil and opposed her.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : rewording

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 1:06 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 556 by jar, posted 12-19-2014 7:30 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 556 of 675 (745139)
12-19-2014 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 555 by Phat
12-19-2014 2:45 AM


Re: Random Philosophy With Jar
So you have no problem with a God who knowingly creates life just to then damn that critter to eternal torment.
Got it.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 555 by Phat, posted 12-19-2014 2:45 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 557 by Phat, posted 12-19-2014 10:27 AM jar has replied

  
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