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Author Topic:   Contradictions: Hint that Genesis 1 and 2 are Allegorical
jar
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Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 43 of 100 (742773)
11-24-2014 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Faith
11-24-2014 3:06 PM


There is certainly a possibility that Jesus considered the stories found in the Torah as historical but it really is unlikely. But regardless, we know for a fact that whether or not Jesus believed things like either of the Biblical Flood myths or the Exodus or the Conquest of Canaan or Genesis 1 or Genesis 2&3 as being factual, they were not. If Jesus did believe they actually happened then Jesus was simply wrong. We've learned quite a bit more than Jesus could have possibly know.

No one questions that people have in the past though such stories were factual but for at least the last couple hundred years it has required willful ignorance, delusion or deceit to do so.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 11-24-2014 3:06 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 46 of 100 (742777)
11-24-2014 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Thugpreacha
11-24-2014 3:52 PM


taking pieces parts out
Actually Phat the whole sentence was "If Jesus did believe they actually happened then Jesus was simply wrong. We've learned quite a bit more than Jesus could have possibly know.".

Why should Jesus know all the things we have learned over the last 2000 years?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-24-2014 3:52 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by deerbreh, posted 11-24-2014 4:34 PM jar has responded
 Message 56 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-02-2014 4:51 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 48 of 100 (742783)
11-24-2014 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by deerbreh
11-24-2014 4:34 PM


Re: taking pieces parts out
Of course. There is nothing in the stories to suggest that Jesus thought such things were factual.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by deerbreh, posted 11-24-2014 4:34 PM deerbreh has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 57 of 100 (743542)
12-02-2014 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Thugpreacha
12-02-2014 4:51 AM


Re: taking pieces parts out
Are you just making stuff up again Phat.

Have you ever actually read the Bible?

In the Bible the God character does not know what is going on and whether or not what She has heard is true and so goes on walkabout to find out.

If God does not know what is going on then why should anyone expect Jesus to know what we have learned over the last 2000 years?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-02-2014 4:51 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-02-2014 10:10 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 59 of 100 (743555)
12-02-2014 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Thugpreacha
12-02-2014 10:10 AM


Re: The Charge Of The Light Brigade
Phat writes:

Show me what scripture you mean for your example.

You amaze me Phat. Now I understand that we need to give special treatment to Creationists and Biblical Christians and allow them to continue making assertions and not address criticism or refutation of their claims of fact but do we also have to accept there apparent short term memory issue so every time something is explained it is immediately forgotten?

There are many such passages. One of course is found in Genesis 2&3 but the specific one I was thinking of is from Genesis 18:20-33.

quote:
20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.

23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.

32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.


Phat writes:

Your entire philosophy as to who God is, whether or not it matters, what responsibility humans now have, and what reality suggests that we use to better understand ourselves and apply to our lives is eccentric. I personally think it was all those Jews you grew up with.

But of course Jesus was never a Christian. He was born a Jew, lived his life as a Jew and died a Jew. His message and his actions were influenced by all those Jews he grew up with.

Phat writes:

I fear that your Jewish inspired upbringing coupled with the christian boarding school that required you to employ critical thinking led you to conclude that Jesus is nothing greater than you or I.

Short term memory issue again?

Have I ever made such an unqualified statement or assertion?

Phat writes:

If God (or the God character) does not know what is going on, where does the authority of the charge that compels us to inspire and live our own lives to the best of our ability and to acknowledge when we error, repent, and redirect our path come from?

Logic, reason and reality Phat. We have been over that. That charge would still be valid whether it came from God or Jesus or Satan or Buddha or Mencius or Confucius or Coyote or Raven or Ganesha or Isis or ...

It is the content that is important, not the source.

Phat writes:

I will agree that the charge is sound. What I won't easily accept is that GOD if GOD exists is unknowable and that humans are left entirely on our own in this realm and time that we live in.

I also disagree with the minimization of the significance of Jesus which you preach.

That's fine but can you explain why you will not accept such things other than you not wanting the responsibility and hoping someone else will make Tinker glow green again?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-02-2014 10:10 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-02-2014 12:08 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 61 of 100 (743570)
12-02-2014 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Thugpreacha
12-02-2014 12:08 PM


Re: The Charge Of The Light Brigade
Phat writes:

Did it ever occur to you that we are the content of the source?

Does that even have any meaning?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-02-2014 12:08 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 80 of 100 (810478)
05-30-2017 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by CRR
05-30-2017 7:05 AM


Yes, contradictions
CRR writes:

Genesis 1 provides the big picture summary of creation week. So this is God's viewpoint.
Genesis 2 zooms in to day 6 when Adam was created. Now we see things from Adam's viewpoint, something not possible before he was created.


Sorry but that is simply nonsense.

Speaking as a life long Anglican Christian the purpose of Genesis 1 & Genesis 2&3 is not creation. Creation in both cases is simply a plot device; irrelevant to the goal of the stories.

This is not an unusual or unique position. Quoting from the Pastoral Letter on opposing Creationism written in 1981 by Rt. Rev. Bennett J. Sims, Episcopal Bishop of Atlanta:

quote:
In Genesis there is not one creation statement but two. They agree as to why and who, but are quite different as to how and when. The statements are set forth in tandem, chapter one of Genesis using one description of method and chapter two another. According to the first, humanity was created, male and female, after the creation of plants and animals. According to the second, man was created first, then the trees, the animals and finally the woman and not from the earth as in the first account, but from the rib of the man. Textual research shows that these two accounts are from two distinct eras, the first later in history, the second earlier.

But there is even more. The God character in Genesis 1 is entirely different than the God character in Genesis 2&3.

In the much younger account in Genesis 1 the God is aloof, overarching, totally competent, acting by will alone but apart, separate, having no contact, communion or interactions with the creation. In the older account found in Genesis 2&3 the God is entirely different, human, somewhat fumbling, learning on the job by trial and error but having direct contact and communion and interaction with the created.

Nor is the story in Genesis 2&3 told from Adam's point of view.

The position you market is simply that of the apologist trying to deny what is actually written and to make the Bible fit the narrative created by the apologist.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by CRR, posted 05-30-2017 7:05 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Davidjay, posted 06-04-2017 10:25 AM jar has responded
 Message 85 by CRR, posted 06-05-2017 6:17 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 82 of 100 (811036)
06-04-2017 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Davidjay
06-04-2017 10:25 AM


Re: Creationism and Evolution differ greatly
Davidjay writes:

Sorry, my God is consistent and the Trinity is consistent and true, despite your preachers insistence that it is contradictory.

The god you market is a picayune nobody. Yest once again you simply misrepresent what I posted.

Davidjay writes:

The writer of Genesis was Moses, and he knew the Lord face to face. You denying this, is wierd, strange and contradictory.. nevertheless as a individual you are allowed to deviate and make up whatever stories you desire that fits your lifestyle. Go for it.

Your delusion does not change the facts of what is actually written in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2&3.

Sorry but what I posted is supported by the actual text while what you post is mere nonsense and fable.

quote:
But there is even more. The God character in Genesis 1 is entirely different than the God character in Genesis 2&3.

In the much younger account in Genesis 1 the God is aloof, overarching, totally competent, acting by will alone but apart, separate, having no contact, communion or interactions with the creation. In the older account found in Genesis 2&3 the God is entirely different, human, somewhat fumbling, learning on the job by trial and error but having direct contact and communion and interaction with the created.

Nor is the story in Genesis 2&3 told from Adam's point of view.

The position you market is simply that of the apologist trying to deny what is actually written and to make the Bible fit the narrative created by the apologist.



My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Davidjay, posted 06-04-2017 10:54 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 84 of 100 (811040)
06-04-2017 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Davidjay
06-04-2017 10:54 AM


Re: Creationism and Evolution differ greatly
Davidjay writes:

You say that the facts of Genesis 1,2 and 3 are facts but allegorical... allegorical facts.. Hmm a new evolutionary word, that defies explanation, just thought up to further confuse your mind and the minds of readers..

Allegorical facts....

I like literal facts and science not your semantic evolutionary 'allegorical facts'

And you continue to misrepresent what I and others say.

What I said is that it is a fact that the stories in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2&3 say what is actually written in the story.

I did not say anything about allegorical facts.

You need to stop lying Davidjay.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Davidjay, posted 06-04-2017 10:54 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 86 of 100 (811104)
06-05-2017 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by CRR
06-05-2017 6:17 AM


Re: No contradictions
Too funny.

Sorry but you are simply making shit up and adding to what is actually written; the classic dishonesty of the apologist.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 88 of 100 (811133)
06-05-2017 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Davidjay
06-05-2017 9:50 AM


Re: No contradictions
Try dealing with what people actually post instead of your delusions and what is actually written in the Bible instead of you dogma.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Davidjay, posted 06-05-2017 9:50 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 91 of 100 (811301)
06-06-2017 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by CRR
06-06-2017 5:17 PM


Re: No contradictions
CRR writes:

So you're suggesting that Moses knowingly put two contradictory accounts side by side? Or was he too stupid to notice? No, Moses would have understood these as two complementary versions, and they have been read that way for thousands of years. People thousands of years ago were just as intelligent as we are. Actually there was an article I saw several years ago suggesting people are becoming less intelligent.

What people are saying is that Moses, if Moses actually existed, had absolutely nothing to do with writting anything in Genesis.

And yes, a very valid issue I've often discussed is why so often two completely contradictory tales got included in the books that were accepted to become canonized as was done with Genesis 1 and Genesis 2&3 and even more with the two flood myths found in Genesis 6&7.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 93 of 100 (811324)
06-07-2017 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Dredge
06-07-2017 5:53 AM


Re: No contradictions
Yes it reads exactly like myth.

But wait, there's more.

The Bible has two mutually exclusive flood myths all mushed up together.

The Bible has two creation myths and they two contradict each other in the order of creation, the method of creation and in the descriptions of the god character.

In fact all of Genesis and Exodus read just like myths and folk tales.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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