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Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 691 of 2241 (743520)
12-01-2014 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 690 by Percy
12-01-2014 8:16 PM


Re: Knowing God
The testimonies in the Bible are the evidence, Percy, they are the evidence that my faith is based on and the evidence I keep trying to persuade you all of, but alas, you keep throwing it away. You get the evidence and you throw it away. Oh well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 690 by Percy, posted 12-01-2014 8:16 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 692 by NoNukes, posted 12-02-2014 1:39 AM Faith has replied
 Message 701 by Taq, posted 12-02-2014 3:05 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 692 of 2241 (743529)
12-02-2014 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 691 by Faith
12-01-2014 8:35 PM


Re: Knowing God
The testimonies in the Bible are the evidence, Percy, they are the evidence that my faith is based on and the evidence I keep trying to persuade you all of
I think I understand where you are coming from. Once you accept that the Bible is an accurate record of past events, then statements in the Bible are facts that can be drawn on to prove that depicted events did occur. The idea the Bible can be accepted in such a way is reinforced by a history and tradition of people taking the Bible in exactly that way going back for centuries.
On the other hand, a 30000 foot look down at such a process indicates to others that the entire process of accepting the Bible in such a way is completely self-referential. There is no logical reason to accept the truth of the Bible in the way you do without some outside confirmation. Non-believers insist on evidence before acceptance. Further complicating things is that quite a few Bible proclamations are internally inconsistent, and poor matches for what can actually be observed. Also, those long, historical traditions that believers adore include periods of persecution, superstition, suppression of science and playing loose with the text, and denouncing other long traditions, all perpetrated by believers. There are also lots of obviously invalid religions which have left various records behind.
I think there are some differences in the definitions of evidence between you and others, but that such differences are minimal and inconsistent on both sides. But generally speaking, when people talk about the lack of evidence, they are referring primarily to the kinds of evidence that would cause someone to take the Bible as testimony despite clear obstacles to doing so.
No amount of quoting the Bible is going to get your point across. If you find yourself grabbing at verses discussing the folly of leaning on human understanding, you have probably reached a frustration point.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 691 by Faith, posted 12-01-2014 8:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 693 by Faith, posted 12-02-2014 5:43 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 693 of 2241 (743536)
12-02-2014 5:43 AM
Reply to: Message 692 by NoNukes
12-02-2014 1:39 AM


Re: Knowing God
The arguments that it is not evidence are superficial and artificial and I simply hope at some point some might see through that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 692 by NoNukes, posted 12-02-2014 1:39 AM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 694 by Larni, posted 12-02-2014 6:17 AM Faith has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 694 of 2241 (743538)
12-02-2014 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 693 by Faith
12-02-2014 5:43 AM


Re: Knowing God
I think the thing to remember is that you refuse to accept any evidence that contradicts the bible.
Given that stand point and being aware that others cannot reconcile the words of the bible with the real world evidence (that you have accepted as being contradicted by the bible) are you surprised by the reactions of people on this site?
And I find it significant that even other Christians on this site cannot reconcile parts of the bible with physical evidence.
What are you thoughts about this?

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 693 by Faith, posted 12-02-2014 5:43 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 695 by Faith, posted 12-02-2014 6:31 AM Larni has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 695 of 2241 (743539)
12-02-2014 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 694 by Larni
12-02-2014 6:17 AM


Re: Knowing God
I think it's a matter of knowing it's God's word, really truly is God's own communication to us. I think some people can yet come to that realization and then the evidence they think stands against the Bible will just be seen as some kind of illusion. But no, I don't expect people to get it unless they do have such a recognition, which would be really a conversion.
This is what we always hope for. But to my mind it's just common sense anyway. The way evidence is demanded here is just a sort of odd habit, or like an irrational cultural practice with regard to the Bible and questions about the supernatural in general. It's an ingrained bias, not the rationally established position they think it is. This external evidence that is demanded is not needed but habit /bias makes them think it is. It's a kind of categorical thinking that gets in the way of really thinking it through. Yes I know that's a weird thing to say, but that is how I see it.
The Christians have allowed themselves to apply a worldly standard instead of holding to faith as their standard. Depending on how far they've allowed themselves to reject parts of the Bible they may still be saved, but I think it's a very risky thing to do.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 694 by Larni, posted 12-02-2014 6:17 AM Larni has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 696 by Percy, posted 12-02-2014 7:42 AM Faith has replied
 Message 697 by NoNukes, posted 12-02-2014 8:30 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 698 by jar, posted 12-02-2014 8:36 AM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22393
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 696 of 2241 (743540)
12-02-2014 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 695 by Faith
12-02-2014 6:31 AM


Re: Knowing God
Faith writes:
The way evidence is demanded here is just a sort of odd habit,...
Evidence is the foundation of the scientific method.
...or like an irrational cultural practice with regard to the Bible and questions about the supernatural in general.
Claims that the supernatural is an aspect of the real world must be supported with evidence, as must any claim.
You also seem unaware that you've changed your tune. A few messages ago you were insisting that evidence is the foundation of faith ("You are wrong about faith, it MUST be based on evidence"). Now you're arguing that demands for evidence are an odd habit and an irrational cultural practice.
You're much more preachy these days, no longer trying to convince people of what the facts support but instead berating people for not sharing your religious beliefs, which appear inconstant. Is your faith supported by evidence or not? If it is, what's that evidence, which for this thread would be evidence that the Bible is inerrant and is the word of God.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 695 by Faith, posted 12-02-2014 6:31 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 703 by Faith, posted 12-02-2014 3:42 PM Percy has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 697 of 2241 (743543)
12-02-2014 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 695 by Faith
12-02-2014 6:31 AM


Re: Knowing God
This is what we always hope for. But to my mind it's just common sense anyway. The way evidence is demanded here is just a sort of odd habit,
Hilarious. Asking for and providing evidence is among the most important rules here. Surely you've learned something after more than a decade of participation here.
Yes I know that's a weird thing to say, but that is how I see it.
Perhaps a bit of introspection is in order.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 695 by Faith, posted 12-02-2014 6:31 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 698 of 2241 (743545)
12-02-2014 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 695 by Faith
12-02-2014 6:31 AM


Re: Knowing God
Faith writes:
I think it's a matter of knowing it's God's word, really truly is God's own communication to us.
So two fowl and seven fowl are the same number?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 695 by Faith, posted 12-02-2014 6:31 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 699 by AdminPhat, posted 12-02-2014 9:30 AM jar has not replied

  
AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 699 of 2241 (743547)
12-02-2014 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 698 by jar
12-02-2014 8:36 AM


Re: Knowing God
Faith writes:
I think it's a matter of knowing it's God's word, really truly is God's own communication to us.
jar writes:
So two fowl and seven fowl are the same number?
You know she won't answer you. Can we move on?
This is from the first post, started by an EvC member long gone and forgotten:
quote:
So, is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
I would say it doesn't really matter.
I mean, even if it was god's exact words, just how far are you going to believe them?
Just take Jesus as an example. What do you think would have happened if he came and said "Your whole conception of how the world is and was made is wrong, let me tell you how it really is." ?
  • Were the authors inspired?
  • Is so, Is the Bible word for word literal or is it thought for thought literal?
  • If not, where did these authors get their information, insight, and story telling ability? What was the source of their inspiration?
    Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.
    Edited by AdminPhat, : clarification and redirection of topic

  • This message is a reply to:
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    Replies to this message:
     Message 700 by ringo, posted 12-02-2014 11:40 AM AdminPhat has seen this message but not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 700 of 2241 (743560)
    12-02-2014 11:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 699 by AdminPhat
    12-02-2014 9:30 AM


    Re: Knowing God
    Phat writes:
    If not, where did these authors get their information, insight, and story telling ability?
    It evolved.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 699 by AdminPhat, posted 12-02-2014 9:30 AM AdminPhat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Taq
    Member
    Posts: 9973
    Joined: 03-06-2009
    Member Rating: 5.7


    Message 701 of 2241 (743587)
    12-02-2014 3:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 691 by Faith
    12-01-2014 8:35 PM


    Re: Knowing God
    The testimonies in the Bible are the evidence, Percy, they are the evidence that my faith is based on and the evidence I keep trying to persuade you all of, but alas, you keep throwing it away. You get the evidence and you throw it away. Oh well.
    What about the testimonies of Muhammed and his followers which demonstrate that God dictated the Qu'ran to Muhammed?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 691 by Faith, posted 12-01-2014 8:35 PM Faith has not replied

      
    Taq
    Member
    Posts: 9973
    Joined: 03-06-2009
    Member Rating: 5.7


    Message 702 of 2241 (743588)
    12-02-2014 3:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 687 by Faith
    12-01-2014 5:52 PM


    Re: Knowing God
    At least in that their "faith" can't save them.
    Why would you do those works if you didn't have faith that they would save you?
    Why do you doubt the Qu'ran? If you believed it is true, then you would believe it was true, wouldn't you? Obviously, once you believe the Qu'ran is true then you will have all the evidence you need.
    Christianity is the only faith-based religion. We are actually saved by our faith in Christ.
    How does being different result in being right?
    Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 687 by Faith, posted 12-01-2014 5:52 PM Faith has not replied

      
    Faith 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 703 of 2241 (743596)
    12-02-2014 3:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 696 by Percy
    12-02-2014 7:42 AM


    Re: Knowing God
    The Bible IS evidence, I haven't changed that tune at all. Witness evidence IS evidence. It IS irrational to dismiss it by "scientific" standards. In fact they don't apply anyway because this is not a case of a single witness whose testimony needs to be corroborated outside his own testimony, this is a collection of many witnesses who do corroborate one another.
    What's irrational is asking for external evidence when sufficient evidence has already been supplied.
    It's the same as if you had a bound stack of testimonies of many witnesses from a trial and they all happen to agree on most of the particulars, it's not one testimony as you all love to say the Bible is, it's a collection of separate testimonies that happen to be bound together. An excessive number of them have been provided in the case of the Bible because extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. It's been supplied.
    \
    It is truly irrational to dismiss all these separate testimonies. And again, God DID provide the physical evidence you all ask for, many instances of it at many times throughout history, but you do have to humble yourself to believe what the many witnesses said about it.
    Maybe I am getting more preachy, wasn't particularly aware of it, but good evidence fails to persuade around here. Hm, looks to me like I'm still trying to use evidence.
    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 696 by Percy, posted 12-02-2014 7:42 AM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 704 by PaulK, posted 12-02-2014 3:51 PM Faith has replied
     Message 707 by Taq, posted 12-02-2014 4:14 PM Faith has replied
     Message 709 by jar, posted 12-02-2014 5:00 PM Faith has replied
     Message 721 by Percy, posted 12-03-2014 7:14 AM Faith has replied

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 17822
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 704 of 2241 (743598)
    12-02-2014 3:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 703 by Faith
    12-02-2014 3:42 PM


    Re: Knowing God
    Much of the Bible is NOT "witness statements". Some of it is myth, some of it legend, some of it is fiction. All of it is partisan, much of it is credulous. None of it stands comparison with even the better ancient histories.
    And that is why the Bible is not good evidence.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 703 by Faith, posted 12-02-2014 3:42 PM Faith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 705 by Faith, posted 12-02-2014 4:07 PM PaulK has replied

      
    Faith 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 705 of 2241 (743600)
    12-02-2014 4:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 704 by PaulK
    12-02-2014 3:51 PM


    Re: Knowing God
    None of it is myth or legend or fiction, none. Except the parables which are clearly identifiable. Where it is historical narrative it is true history. Otherwise there are devotional and poetic books and proverbs and prophets, and the letters of the New Testament that are theological or elaborate on instructions for living the Christian life, but even all those contribute to the overall witness testimony because they are by various personalities in the whole history and refer to other known personalities, as well as achoing other writers of the scripture.
    The specific witness accounts I was mostly referring to, such as of miraculous events, occur here and there throughout the books of the scripture. But it's all of a piece historically and theologically anyway.
    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 704 by PaulK, posted 12-02-2014 3:51 PM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
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