Summations Only

quote:

---

None of it is myth or legend or fiction, none

---

Denying the truth won't make it go away. If you'd ever read the Bible the myth and the legend are obvious. No rational person could deny it.

In that case . . .I was a witness to Jesus' ministry. It turns out that he stayed dead and did not resurrect.Are you going to stop being a christian now, following my eyewitness evidence that simply can't be false and is not a myth?

Oh don't be silly. There's enough silliness here already without going to that extreme.But if He stayed dead and you saw all this you should be able to produce the body. Where is it?

But they do not corroborate one another and in fact they often contradict one another as you have been shown repeatedly.

"Shown" indeed. You all make claims of that sort but you're off the wall, the lot of you.

You are already dismissing the eyewitness evidence. Go figure. I just gave you all of the evidence you need.

But the evidence has been shown to you and that you cannot deny.There are the two mutually exclusive flood stories.There is the evolution of the Great Commission as the story gets revised over time.

quote:

---

Actually living the Great Commission is a bummer. Trying to do what Jesus charged us to do was a hard sell in his day and near impossible today. So shortly after his death the various folk trying to market the franchise started making the product more attractive, selling the sizzle instead of the steak.

​

That is not just a new tactic, by the time the author of John's Gospel was writing the advertising it was pretty obvious. Look at the Great Commission as found in Matthew 28:

​

quote:

---

16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
  —"Matthew 28:16-20:"

---

​

"19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

​

Obey what I have commanded you.

​

If you read all of Matthew, you will find that what we are commanded to do is "try to do our best for others."

​

There is nothing in there about salvation, nothing in there about an afterlife, nothing in there about any benefits that the disciples would get. It is about going and doing, about feeding and clothing and seeing that folk have clean water and shelter and jobs.

​

By the time the advertiser came back and revised Mark adding the "Long Ending", the Great Commission had begun to change.

​

quote:

---

14Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

​

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

​

19After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
  —"Mark 16"

---

​

Originally Mark ended with just an empty tomb and the women running away afraid, but that was a really hard sell. So at sometime someone came back and added the parts from Mark 16:10-20.

​

This version is much different. It now has some real benefits, salvation just for believing and getting baptized and the chance to do some really neat tricks. It is a much easier sale, all you need to do is go profess the "Good News" rather than just doing little stuff like feeding and clothing and shelter. AND it offers a real reward.

​

Then along came the author of John, and he makes the deal even sweeter.

​

quote:

---

19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

​

21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
  —"John 20"

---

​

Now the doors are locked and Jesus still shows up and for the first time, the disciples are given the power to even override GOD. If they forgive sins the sins are forgiven but if they don't forgive sins then the person is damned.

​

Now that is real power.

​

This trend of marketing Christianity has continued on down until today.

​

You gotta admit that telling someone all they need to do is believe and get baptized is a whole lot easier to sell then telling them they gotta do for the least of these with no guarantee of reward. And you gotta admit telling folk "I have the power to damn you" is a pretty strong incentive.

​

So was the evolution of the post resurrection story and the Great Commission driven by marketing pressure?

---

And if you want I will happily provide additional examples.But the fact is that the different authors often contradict what the other authors create.

So try being sensible, then.Why should I think that the Tower of Babel is anything other than a myth ?Why should I think that the story of Samson is not a legend ?

No you didn't, Taq, you seem to have no idea what is required of a witness in this case. For one thing many witnesses are needed, even according to Levitical law, because one is not trustworthy, which we know about you anyway. The women who followed Jesus and three or four of the disciples saw the tomb empty and witnessed Jesus risen. Peter for instance, one of the witnesses, found no body, but the linen burial cloths were still there (John 20:5-6). John was with him and saw the same thing. This is what we get from real witnesses, details like this. Lots of witnesses to the tomb's being empty and nobody ever produced the body. So if you saw him dead after the claims that He had risen, that's your job. Otherwise you are just the false witness we know you are anyway, trying ineptly to make a mockery of the whole idea.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I don't know why you should think the Tower of Babel IS a myth or the story of Samson a legend. Both are presented within a historical narrative that gives no clue that they are anything but historical facts.

i can't think why any sensible reader would think otherwise. Just look at them. I mean God getting so worried by a mud brick tower that he curses people with different languages ? A hero who has superhuman strength so long as he doesn't have a haircut ?Really.

The Bible is meant to be learned from. If you just dismiss it because it doesn't sound right to you then you'll never learn anything from it, which is of course the stance you've taken so there's not much I can say. The Tower of Babel episode hints at something very dangerous for mankind if God hadn't thwarted it.Samson is an example of some kind of supernatural or miraculous doings, which makes the story suspect to a modern man. What can I say? I'm a simple reader of the Bible, I believe it. God chose him to be a Nazirite and gave him incredible strength as long as he didn't cut his hair. It's the story of an impetuous sinner who was deceived by a woman and had to come back to God the hard way. I just believe it, you can't, way it goes. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I notice that your argument amounts to asserting that I should just agree with you. You,ve presented no sensible reason to consider either story a "witness statement", or even any reason to reject the obvious assessment - the same assessment you would make if the stories were pagan.And no, the Babel story doesn't hint at any danger for mankind in the tower.

They both witness to God in their own way, but when I used that term I was talking about the great miracles that were done by God, and Jesus, for the specific purpose of proving who they are, miracles attested by many whose reactions are reported. These two stories aren't given for that purpose. They are to be believed, however, on the basis that the Bible is the word of God.Of course you don't see the implication of the Tower of Babel event, as I said.

So now you're saying that many of the Bible stories don't count as witness statements. But OK let's try Exodus. Do you count that as a "witness statement". On what grounds?
Any that a reasonable person - an actual reasonable person - would consider adequate?And the reason I don't see the "implication" in the Tower of Babel story is because it isn't there. If you disagree show me - but don't forget that any assumptions from outside the story could invalidate your claim.