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Author Topic:   Questions for theo-evolutionists and evos
TheVanisher
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 17 (74401)
12-20-2003 1:25 AM


Hello, how is everyone's Chistmas season? Basically there are three questions I would like to throw out for answering:
1) How many, if any, confirmed inter-speciary fossils have been found? You know, the fossils that demonstrate gradual evolution between the species.
2) How do you explain OT prophecy that came to pass in real life, such as the accounts in Daniel. Were they just added in later by someone else or is there a less sinister explination for them?
And for any theo-evolutionists:
3) How do you explain the last segment of the creation story in which the Bible claims that God makes man out of clay and with breath from his nostrils? Doesn't that directly contradict the evolutionary explanation in which man evolves from monkeys?
Thanks a lot for any answers. I was raised to be a Christian-theo, but within the last few years I've come to doubt a lot of the biblical accounts and the creation story is no exception to the rule.

Replies to this message:
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AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 2 of 17 (74402)
12-20-2003 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by TheVanisher
12-20-2003 1:25 AM


Hello Vanisher,
Welcome to EvC. Please feel free to register and join in on the many topics in the rest of the forum.
I won't touch on your first two questions, I'll leave them to the more knowledgable among us. As to the third, I believe that the theistic evolutionists would take the creation story as metaphorical. Not to mention that not all theists are believers in the Xian god.
------------------
AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 3 of 17 (74405)
12-20-2003 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by TheVanisher
12-20-2003 1:25 AM


How many, if any, confirmed inter-speciary fossils have been found? You know, the fossils that demonstrate gradual evolution between the species.
How could any organism not be a species?
You're asking for something that doesn't exist. You can have a population that starts as one species, evolves into another, and yet into a third, and every organism in that population will be of a species, throughout the transformations.
This is possible because new species can arise.
Maybe you want to rethink your question because it doesn't make sense. Evolution doesn't predict monsters that belong to no species. It predicts organisms that belong to new species. There's no halfway-point between species.
Now, if your question is "how do new species come to be?" That's a good question. That's the one that had me as a creationist for so long. And it turns out the answer is so simple. You get new species when a population of organisms is split off from the group. They contiue to breed, but only with themselves. Mutations accrue in a process called "genetic drift". When the two populations' gene pools have drifted far enough, members from the two populations can no longer have fertile hybrids. At that point you know they're two different species.
When exactly did you get a new species in the above example? That's hard to tell. The line between species is very, very fuzzy indeed. Look up the example of "ring species" to see more on that. (Pubmed, or even just google.)
How do you explain OT prophecy that came to pass in real life, such as the accounts in Daniel. Were they just added in later by someone else or is there a less sinister explination for them?
How do you explain that a psychic predicted Princess Di's accident the day before it happened? (I remember this one very clearly, as the issue of the National Inquirerer was still on the shelves the next day.)
Well, I don't know how you explain it, but I explain it with chance. When things go your way, you remember both the prediction and the outcome. When they don't you don't remember you were wrong; you forget the prophecy altogether.
As for prophecy in the OT: I've read plenty of books where something prophecised in the beginning happened in the end. That's a common technique in fiction.
[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 12-20-2003]

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 4 of 17 (74406)
12-20-2003 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by TheVanisher
12-20-2003 1:25 AM


To answer your questions
1) I don't know how many fossils have been classified as being intermediates between species, howevr I do know that some have been found. One example is the so-called "archaic" homo sapiens specimens.
I will also point out that many creationists accept - and even insist - that evolution at this level is entirely possible.
2) The prophecies in Daniel were mostly written after the fact, although I am not sure that the reason would be considered "sinister". The purpose seems to have been to encourage Jewish resistance to the Seleucid monarch Antiochus Epiphanes (the "King of the North") who had conquered the region and was attempting to suppress the Jewish religion.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 5 of 17 (74419)
12-20-2003 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by TheVanisher
12-20-2003 1:25 AM


Hi,
How do you explain OT prophecy that came to pass in real life, such as the accounts in Daniel. Were they just added in later by someone else or is there a less sinister explination for them?
What can be less sinister than these 'prophecies' being added by a later scribe?
Brian.

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Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 17 (74420)
12-20-2003 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by TheVanisher
12-20-2003 1:25 AM


Explain Prophesy
How does one explain all the New Testament prophesies that have not come to pass?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by TheVanisher, posted 12-20-2003 1:25 AM TheVanisher has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 17 (74422)
12-20-2003 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by TheVanisher
12-20-2003 1:25 AM


quote:
How do you explain OT prophecy that came to pass in real life, such as the accounts in Daniel. Were they just added in later by someone else or is there a less sinister explination for them?
Another point that people have failed to mention is that so many of the "prophecies" are rather vague and can easily be interpreted to fit history after the fact.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 8 of 17 (74437)
12-20-2003 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Chiroptera
12-20-2003 11:14 AM


Also some were fulfilled on purpose in order to fulfill them; IIRC Jesus rode the donkey into Jerusalem for that reason.

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Prozacman
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 17 (74440)
12-20-2003 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by TheVanisher
12-20-2003 1:25 AM


I'll attempt to answer #3. First above all, humans didnot evolve directly from monkeys. Monkey's, apes, and humans are different groups of primates,and humans are believed to have evolved from a common ancestor with the apes. According to the Paleontologists, biologists, and other scientists who study human evolution, monkey's & apes split off from their common ancestor first. Later in prehistory the apes split off at differing times into the ancestors of gorilla's, chimps, ourang's, a group of prehumans(Australopithicus Afarensis for just one example) who are extinct, and others. The monkies have a tail while apes & humans do not, and the monkies evolved into a bunch of species alive today. So, monkies are not directly related to you and me. Genetically speaking, chimps are!
Now that that's out of the way, I can hopefully explain about what I think these passages in Genesis mean. Honestly, I am a theo-evolutionist like yourself and like you I was also a believer in "the literal bible" and a christian. While I still believe in God(in a sense), this passage to me is mythical. That is, it attempts to explain from the point of view of the ancient Jews the origin of humans with a particular god playing the protagonist's role. There is some truth in what the passage implies about how the ancient Jews saw themselves and their god, but that truth is not necessarilly literal or factual. The ancient's words for clay and breath of the nostrils of God is very poetic. While 'clay' may have been a word like 'dust', in which the ancient's recognised(ingeneously?) that we are made up of stuff from the ground(elements?), 'breath' is a word that means 'spirit' & means life from God. IOW there is a passage in the Bible somewhere that implies that our human life(spirit) came from the eternal & will return to the eternal. We get our animal and vegetable product to sustain ourselves from the ground(clay), and we have our life(breath) ultimately from God. Therefor, to me this passage doesn't create a problem with God & evolution in the same boat.
[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 12-20-2003]

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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 10 of 17 (74534)
12-21-2003 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by PaulK
12-20-2003 2:39 AM


PaulK responds to TheVanisher (and why does that name make me think he's just a drive by?):
quote:
The purpose seems to have been to encourage Jewish resistance to the Seleucid monarch Antiochus Epiphanes (the "King of the North") who had conquered the region and was attempting to suppress the Jewish religion.
The problem is that Antiochus refused to live up to the prophecy of Daniel. A Ptolomaic king was supposed to attack the Greeks under Antiochus, he would rise and prevail over northeast Africa, and return to Palestine to die, thus triggering the end of the world. Alas, none of those things happened.
Since "the abomination that causes desolation" is apparently the placement of a statue of Zeus in the temple in 167 BCE and since Antiochus died in Persia in 164 BCE, this must mean that Daniel was written between those two years. It's mostly history with a little bit of "You'll get yours!" prophecy that doesn't take place.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 11 of 17 (74551)
12-21-2003 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Abshalom
12-20-2003 10:45 AM


Re: Explain Prophesy
Abshalom
How about you pick out a prophecy that hasn't happened yet and we will all see if it will come true? Make it specific and not vague please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Abshalom, posted 12-20-2003 10:45 AM Abshalom has replied

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Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 17 (74697)
12-22-2003 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by sidelined
12-21-2003 11:22 AM


Re: Explain Prophesy
Sidelined:
How about you pick out a few that are written between Rev. 1:1 wherein the prophesies were said to be given "to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass..." (reinforced by Rev. 1:3, "... that they hear the words of this prophesy and keep those things wich are written therein, for the time is at hand."), and Rev. 22:10, "And he saith unto me: Seal not the sayings of the prophesy of this book, for the time is at hand."
Anything unfullfilled from 1:3 through 22:10 will do for an example.
[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 12-22-2003]

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 13 of 17 (74732)
12-22-2003 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Abshalom
12-22-2003 5:01 PM


Re: Explain Prophesy
"And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."
Who are the two witnesses?
"And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."
What do you say this is about?
"nd there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads."
Again,the explanation for this?
Let us have clear explanations and we shall see how much they deviate from others who claim to know these things.{there are literally thousands of them on the web.}
------------------
"I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong."
R.P. Feynman

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TheVanisher
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 17 (74799)
12-23-2003 1:28 AM


Hello everyone, thanks for all the replies:
Crashfrog: I see how this would create some different species,like foxes or types of frogs, especially when natural selection and environment and added in. But then how do you make species that are radically different from eachother, like horses and cats? The number of animal species in existance doesn't seem to account for the whole evolutionary chain, you would need for there to be intermediary species, like the half-evolved chimps that aren't quite human yet. These are the sort of fossils I was referring to. The fossil record seems to me like it would be the most reliable source of evidence for determining what actually happened, since it would provide us with historic data, thus why I was asking that question.
PaulK: Has this been proven or is it just theory? Have manuscripts been found or are people still guessing at the origins of the text. It would seem sinister to me because the people adding the new passages would no doubt have an alterior motive for doing so...
Prozacman: Very interesting explanation. Do you or most other evo-theos believe the overall message of the bible (Humans needing Christ to give them salvation)is accurate or do most theo-evos think its just a myth?

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 15 of 17 (74805)
12-23-2003 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by TheVanisher
12-23-2003 1:28 AM


There are no original manuscripts for any part of the Bible. However there is strong evidence that the prophecies in Daniel were written at about that time.
To summarise some of the evidence:
1) The book is classified among the "Writings" rather than the "Prophets". If Daniel had been written when Daniel supposedly lived - even the parts dealing with Daniel's life this would be very surprising. On the other hand if Daniel were late it would be expected.
2) There is no clear reference to the book or Daniel the person prior to that date.
3) There are historical errors in the parts dealing with Daniel's life (for instance the Persians overcame the Medes prior to conquering Babylon - Daniel reverses these events).
4) The prophecies are clearly directed against Antiochus. I suggest comparing the prophecies to the other accounts of the period such as Josephus and 1 and 2 Maccabees, as well as modern historians.
5) The prophecies are wrong concerning the death of Antiochus. This is exactly what we would expect if the prophecies were written shortly before that time.

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