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Author | Topic: Morality! Thorn in Darwin's side or not? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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and make a declaration? We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all people are endowed with certain Basic Human Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, Equality, Justice, and the pursuit of Happiness, -- That to secure and protect these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their powers from the consent and willing participation of the governed, -- And that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect, secure and protect their Rights. Something like that? or http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/? Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .. by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 329 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined:
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Yes, very much like that.
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ringo Member Posts: 19524 From: frozen wasteland Joined: Member Rating: 2.8 |
I suppose our main point of disagreement is the definition of the word "objective". I tend to think of objectivity as dealing with an object - i.e. something that has definite qualities and/or quantities. We can objectively measure a two-by-four without knowing what it is; we're only interested in the qualities and/or quantities of the object itself. What you're describing seems more like a collective subjectivity, a consensus of opinion based on highly subjective criteria rather than on a real-world object. We can look back on results that suited us but what's good for us isn't necessarily "good".
Some species, sure. But other species survive by being more specialized. Shouldn't that put them on a "higher scale of fitness" too?
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 329 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
The concept of good requires a subject and a frame of reference. The only way that your claim can be true is if you change the frame of reference after assessing what is good for us and before assessing if it is good in some other way. Humans as a species become the object of assessment.
Again it is the reference frame. In 1850 we might have said that the passenger pigeon was equally fit as the shark, crocodile or cockroach. Today we see that this was not the case. Isn't this an objective assessment?
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ringo Member Posts: 19524 From: frozen wasteland Joined: Member Rating: 2.8 |
Exactly. It's subjective.
And different subjects have different standards for that assessment. Since when does anybody think in terms of what's good for "humans as a species" anyway?
No. Accidentally arriving at a conclusion that seems correct in retrospect does not indicate objectivity.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 6637 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
I know some who think that what's good for humanity as a species is to get rid of 2/3 of them.
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Colbard Member (Idle past 2626 days) Posts: 300 From: Australia Joined: |
Classic freemason teaching
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Colbard Member (Idle past 2626 days) Posts: 300 From: Australia Joined: |
Keep thinking. Power does not grant a love response.
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jar Member Posts: 33893 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 2.8 |
HUH? You really have not read the Bible have you?
Freemason teaching or simply pointing out what the Bible actually says? Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Theodoric Member Posts: 7311 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.0 |
Do you know anything about Freemasonry?
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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ringo Member Posts: 19524 From: frozen wasteland Joined: Member Rating: 2.8 |
How is that a response to what I said? Please ty to make a clear point.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Because we all live in a yellow submarine. by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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Zatara Junior Member (Idle past 2482 days) Posts: 4 From: Richland Joined: |
Jar writes:
"You don't know anything about the Bible or Christianity or Science or Honesty or Morality or evidence or debate or discussion for starters. If you did then you would know that the Bible says mankind has the same capability to know right and wrong as God does .... What difference does it make whether someone read the Bible? I've read it, all of it, but that does not mean I believe any of it or that it comes from a god. Morality is easily explained by evolution. The tribes that cooperated and treated each other fairly survived. They had a distinct advantage over tribes that did not work together and did not treat one another fairly. Even animals have a sense of fairness and reciprocity. This has been clearly demonstrated by many studies and featured in a TED talk by Frans de Waal. http://www.ted.com/...s/frans_de_waal_do_animals_have_morals
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jar Member Posts: 33893 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 2.8 |
Your a new kid here so I will cut you a ton of slack but your post has absolutely no relevance to what I posted. If you read more of what I post here at EvC you will learn I have only minor points of contention with anything in your post above. My point was that those who think the Bible is much of a moral guideline or that God determines morality simply have not read the Bible. The Bible is filled with the question of what morality is, the God character in the Bible constantly struggles with trying to figure out what is moral and very often behaves in what we can only describe as an immoral manner if not utterly depraved. Also, as the part you quoted points out, the Bible itself says that man has the exact same ability to determine right from wrong as God, and we too constantly struggle with determining what is moral or immoral. I never tell anyone they should believe in God but personally, I do. But that is me. However I do think it is important to point out what the Bible (or Veda or Koran or Tanach or Eight Fold Path or writing of Confucius or Mencius or ...) actually do say particularly when folk resort to using such writings as support for their personal positions. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 739 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
And to muddy the waters even further the interpretation and application of what was read; example......all of them folks who take up serpents.
![]() If you get bit it cuz you doing it wrong! "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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